§
`An approved inspector who gives an initial notice shall until a final notice has been given under section 28 be precluded, either by himself or by an agent, from providing any services or exercising any functions in relation to the work specified in the notice other than the provision of services and the exercise of functions for enforcing the building regulations.'—[Mr. Graham.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. GrahamI beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
New clause 10 is yet another attempt by the Opposition to write on to the face of the Bill words that will make it abundantly clear that there is no dubiety about the independence of approved inspectors.
We have received advice from all quarters about the unease that is and will be felt by the professional bodies involved about the Bill in its present form. The Institute of Building Control Officers, the Society of Chief Building Control Officers, the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, the National and Local Government Officers Association, and a range of architects, surveyors and engineers who, perhaps, in the fullness of time will earn the accolade of "approved inspector", are uneasy. I accept that the Minister and his advisers understand that tests of independence have been set up. Nevertheless, we must be clear that there is complete independence.
We want to ensure that as long as an approved inspector supervises building control regulations on a project—once he has given an initial notice until the final notice has been given under section 28—he shall be precluded, either by himself or by an agency, from providing any service or exercising any function in relation to that work.
We accept that people who are appointed as approved inspectors will be competent men or women. We hope that 898 there will eventually be a system by which approved inspectors will not merely have to have the appropriate letters after their name automatically to qualify as approved inspectors. They should also have additional training. We want a system that ensures that the qualities and character of an approved inspector are what we would like.
In the business world, there is what one might call a close relationship between partnerships of architects, surveyors, engineers and other professionals. We envisage circumstances in which a competent, qualified and honest person carrying out his examination of a project in compliance with the building regulations will have to decide whether to approve, disapprove, stop or start a project when such decisions cut across his professional judgment and may have a direct effect on commercial interests that will be disadvantaged if he acts on them.
That cannot occur under the present system. A building inspector's decision may cut across the best interests of a professional association or body. The independence and integrity of public building inspectors is not challenged as being other than in the best interests of the builder, the developer and the consumer.
When the Minister rejected a similar amendment in Committee, he said that the relationship that we hinted at could not be envisaged for all-time. We have redrawn it simply to say that, as long as an inspector carries out his functions between issuing the initial notice and issuing the final one—that may take six months or two years—he should have no relationship with anyone if that relationship impugns his independence.
The Opposition hope that the Minister will take the intention of the new clause on board. It is intended to make it crystal clear on the face of the Bill that there will be no dubiety about the independence of the inspectors when they undertake their major responsibilities. I strongly hope that the new clause will be accepted.
§ Sir George YoungThe objective of new clause 10 is to ensure that approved inspectors who check designs and supervise construction work act independently and are not engaged in any other capacity on the work in question.
We explained in Committee that we understand and share that objective. I am happy to repeat it. The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham) explained his intention. We share it. However, the drafting of the new clause in no way matches the hon. Gentleman's intention, as I shall explain. The Bill already contains the mechanisms that we need to ensure that the certifiers are independent. I hope to convince the House that those mechanisms will be more flexible and reliable than they would be under new clause 10.
The hon. Gentleman wants to prevent the designer from being judge and jury in his own case and does not want someone who has designed a major building or piece of construction work to be entirely and solely responsible for deciding whether it complies with the building regulations. He wants an independent check but the new clause as drafted would not achieve that end. It would exclude a certifier from any other involvement with the project only between the service of the initial notice and the giving of a final certificate. It would not prevent someone who had designed a building from then proceeding to serve an initial notice in respect of it as an approved inspector.
899 The hon. Gentleman will agree that that is a fundamental defect in the new clause. It would not give him the assurance that he wants. We shall achieve that objective and secure the independence of the certifier through regulations under clause 24 which require an approved inspector who serves an initial notice to declare that he has no involvement in the design of the project, and that he has no connection with it, other than as certifier. The new clause does not do that. Local authorities would be required to reject initial notices which did not contain such a declaration. Further regulations could be made under clause 28 to require final certificates to confirm that the certifier's independence was maintained when he was exercising his functions as an approved inspector. It will, of course, be an offence under clause 34 to make a fake statement in an initial notice of a final certificate.
Proceeding in that way by regulations would not only enable us to establish firm control over the independence of certifiers of major projects; it would enable us to distinguish projects where the independence of the certifier is essential from minor works where it might be reasonable to allow limited self-certification. That idea was advanced in our command paper on the future of building control. In paragraph 28 we suggested that "self-certifiable" categories to be specified in regulations would include
single storey house extensions not exceeding 60 metre squared in area;andalterations in low rise houses within the existing envelope;That has been supported by the Royal Institution of British Architects and the Institution of Structural Engineers, who have urged on us the importance of preserving the possibility of limited self-certification. It would be wrong now to close the door on self-certification in those cases. There must be the fullest possible public consultation on the precise limits before regulations are laid. Against that background, I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his motion.
§ Mr. GrahamYet again the Minister asks the House to accept his assurance that all will be well in the prescribed regulations. We are not prepared to accept that assurance. We want those words written into the Bill, and when the matter is put to the vote we shall support it.
§ It being half-past Five o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the order [16 February] and the Resolution this day, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
§ Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 189, Noes 265.
902| Division No. 98] | [5.30 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abse, Leo | Boothroyd, Miss Betty |
| Allaun, Frank | Bottomley, Rt Hon A. (M'b'ro) |
| Alton, David | Bradley, Tom |
| Anderson, Donald | Bray, Dr Jeremy |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Brocklebank-Fowler, C. |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) |
| Ashton, Joe | Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S) |
| Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) | Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Buchan, Norman |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) | Campbell-Savours, Dale |
| Beith, A. J. | Canavan, Dennis |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Cant, R. B. |
| Bennett, Andrew (St'kp't N) | Carmichael, Neil |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Cartwright, John |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | McElhone, Mrs Helen |
| Clarke, Thomas(C'b'dge, A'rie) | McKelvey, William |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | McTaggart, Robert |
| Cohen, Stanley | Marshall, D (G'gow S'ton) |
| Coleman, Donald | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Crowther, Stan | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Cryer, Bob | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Meacher, Michael |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Dalyell, Tam | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Davidson, Arthur | Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
| Deakins, Eric | Newens, Stanley |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Dewar, Donald | Ogden, Eric |
| Dixon, Donald | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Dobson, Frank | O'Neill, Martin |
| Dormand, Jack | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Douglas, Dick | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Park, George |
| Dunnett, Jack | Parker, John |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Parry, Robert |
| Eadie, Alex | Penhaligon, David |
| Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| English, Michael | Race, Reg |
| Ennals, Rt Hon David | Richardson, Jo |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Ewing, Harry | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Robertson, George |
| Field, Frank | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Flannery, Martin | Rooker, J. W. |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Roper, John |
| Ford, Ben | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Foulkes, George | Rowlands, Ted |
| Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd) | Sandelson, Neville |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Sever, John |
| Freud, Clement | Sheerman, Barry |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Golding, John | Short, Mrs Renée |
| Graham, Ted | Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) | Silverman, Julius |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Skinner, Dennis |
| Haynes, Frank | Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Soley, Clive |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Spearing, Nigel |
| Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) | Spellar, John Francis (B'ham) |
| Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Home Robertson, John | Stallard, A. W. |
| Hooley, Frank | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. | Stoddart, David |
| Hoyle, Douglas | Strang, Gavin |
| Huckfield, Les | Straw, Jack |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Hughes, Simon (Bermondsey) | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Janner, Hon Greville | Tilley, John |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Torney, Tom |
| Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillh'd) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| John, Brynmor | Wainwright, E.(Dearne V) |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster) |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Warden, Gareth |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Welsh, Michael |
| Kerr, Russell | White, Frank R. |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | White, J. (G'gow Pollok) |
| Kinnock, Neil | Whitlock, William |
| Lambie, David | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Lamond, James | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Leighton, Ronald | Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W) |
| Lestor, Miss Joan | Wilson, Rt Hon Sir H.(H'ton) |
| Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) | Wilson, William (C'try SE) |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Winnick, David |
| Litherland, Robert | Woodall, Alec |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Wright, Sheila |
| Young, David (Bolton E) | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Mr. George Morton. | |
| Tellers for the Ayes: |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh |
| Ancram, Michael | Fraser, Peter (South Angus) |
| Arnold, Tom | Fry, Peter |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne) | Gardner, Sir Edward |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Banks, Robert | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Bendall, Vivian | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Gray, Rt Hon Hamish |
| Best, Keith | Greenway, Harry |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Griffiths, E.(B'y St. Edm'ds) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Grist, Ian |
| Blackburn, John | Grylls, Michael |
| Body, Richard | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Bowden, Andrew | Hannam, John |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Hastings, Stephen |
| Bright, Graham | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Brinton, Tim | Hawkins, Sir Paul |
| Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Heddle, John |
| Brotherton, Michael | Henderson, Barry |
| Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) | Hicks, Robert |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt. Hon. A. | Holland, Philip (Carlton) |
| Budgen, Nick | Hooson, Tom |
| Burden, Sir Frederick | Hordern, Peter |
| Butcher, John | Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Chapman, Sydney | Irvine, RtHon Bryant Godman |
| Churchill, W. S. | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| Cockeram, Eric | Kimball, Sir Marcus |
| Colvin, Michael | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Cope, John | Kitson, Sir Timothy |
| Cormack, Patrick | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Corrie, John | Knox, David |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Lang, Ian |
| Cranbome, Viscount | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Critchley, Julian | Latham, Michael |
| Crouch, David | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Lee, John |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Le Merchant, Spencer |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Durant, Tony | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo) |
| Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) | Loveridge, John |
| Eggar, Tim | Luce, Richard |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Eyre, Reginald | McCrindle, Robert |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Faith, Mrs Sheila | MacGregor, John |
| Farr, John | MacKay, John (Argyll) |
| Fenner, Mrs Peggy | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | McNair-Wilson, P, (New F'st) |
| Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles | Major, John |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Marland, Paul |
| Forman, Nigel | Marlow, Antony |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Mates, Michael | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Mawby, Ray | Shepherd, Richard |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Silvester, Fred |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Sims, Roger |
| Mellor, David | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Speed, Keith |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Speller, Tony |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Spence, John |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) |
| Moate, Roger | Sproat, Iain |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Squire, Robin |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Stainton, Keith |
| Moore, John | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Morgan, Geraint | Stanley, John |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton S) | Steen, Anthony |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Stevens, Martin |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire) |
| Mudd, David | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Murphy, Christopher | Stokes, John |
| Myles, David | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Neale, Gerrard | Tapsell, Peter |
| Needham, Richard | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Neubert, Michael | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Newton, Tony | Thompson, Donald |
| Nott, Rt Hon Sir John | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) |
| Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S. | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Osborn, John | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Page, John (Harrow, West) | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Parris, Matthew | Viggers, Peter |
| Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Wakeham, John |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Pawsey, James | Walker, Rt Hon P.(W'cester) |
| Percival, Sir Ian | Walker, B. (Perth) |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D. |
| Pollock, Alexander | Wall, Sir Patrick |
| Porter, Barry | Waller, Gary |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Walters, Dennis |
| Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) | Ward, John |
| Prior, Rt Hon James | Warren, Kenneth |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Watson, John |
| Rathbone, Tim | Wells, Bowen |
| Rees-Davies, W. R. | Wheeler, John |
| Renton, Tim | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Whitney, Raymond |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Williams, D.(Montgomery) |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | Wolfson, Mark |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Rossi, Hugh | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Rost, Peter | |
| Royle, Sir Anthony | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R. | Mr. Carol Mather and |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Mr. Robert Boscawen. |
| Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded, to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at half-past Five o'clock.