§ 4. Mr. Litherlandasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will bring forward proposals to prevent the supply of arms to Argentina.
§ Mr. PymWe shall continue to seek to limit arms sales to Argentina. We have made clear to our allies and friends our strong views on any continuation of such sales by them in present circumstances, in particular when Argentina has not agreed to a definitive cessation of hostilities. But it is not possible to prevent Argentina from buying arms altogether.
§ Mr. LitherlandDoes the Foreign Secretary honestly believe that the general public—especially those who lost loved ones—will accept that reply, when four frigates are being manufactured in Hamburg with Rolls-Royce engines, and when Exocets are being manufactured in France with United Kingdom components? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Government are supplying a potential enemy with the sort of weapons that cost 240 British lives in the Falklands war? The Government made a tremendous blunder once, but there will be no whitewash next time.
§ Mr. PymThe Government regret that the German Government have not felt able to prevent the delivery of 825 the first of those warships. We have made our views plain to the German Government on several occasions. The Government appreciated the position taken by the Federal Government during the conflict, not least over arms deliveries to Argentina, which were stopped at the time. In that, I share the hon. Gentleman's view. The hon. Gentleman also referred to Exocets, but there are things known as contracts and we have given commitments that it would be wrong to break. Hon. Members should remember that Exocets are supplied to countries all over the world and also to the Royal Navy. We have stated as strongly as possible our firm conviction that arms should not be supplied to Argentina at present. In the last analysis it is for other Governments to decide their policies. However, we have done our best to influence them.
§ Mr. HealeyDoes the Foreign Secretary accept that his reply was one of stupefying hypocrisy? The Government are arranging to provide the Argentines with the money to buy arms wherever they wish and, in addition, they are insisting that Rolls-Royce should fulfil its contract to provide essential items of equipment for the warships that Germany is supplying to Argentina. It is a little indecent of the Government to be wrapping themselves in the Union Jack over the Falklands issue when they are financing the purchase of arms to fight British troops by a Government who still insist that they are in a state of war.
§ Mr. PymI have told the House the truth. It might be nicer for us all if it were different, but it is not. As my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State for Defence made clear in the House on 22 November, the Rolls-Royce engines were part of a long-standing contract with a NATO ally, and in making them available we made it clear that we would be concerned about early delivery and we have sought to prevent that. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned loans to Argentina, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it clear in the House that the Argentine Government's capacity to buy arms is likely to be reduced significantly by the introduction of the IMF programme attached to its loan. The programme includes conditions which require substantial adjustments in the Argentine economy, which will reduce rather than increase the scope for the purchase of arms. We have done everything we can to try to prevent the sale of arms to Argentina.
§ Mr. HealeyIf it were not for the loans that the Government are making to Argentina, the Argentine Government's ability to buy arms would be enormously reduced. The Argentine Government have made it clear already that the conditions—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The right hon. Gentleman must ask a question and not submit—
§ Mr. Healeyrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The same rules apply to every hon. Member. The right hon. Gentleman must ask a question and not enter into a debate.
§ Mr. HealeyI apologise, Mr. Speaker, for not having couched my remarks in the appropriate interrogatory form, which I shall now do. Does the Foreign Secretary accept that the Argentine Government's ability to buy arms abroad would be enormously reduced if the British Government were not lending them money? Have not the 826 Argentine Government already made it clear that any conditions attached to the IMF loan will not inhibit them from continuing to buy arms abroad—including arms to which British firms have contributed essential items of equipment? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that his hypocrisy, and that of the Prime Minister, is beyond—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The right hon. Gentleman knows that it is wrong to accuse anyone of hypocrisy. It is hard to be an hon. Gentleman and a hypocrite. The right hon. Gentleman—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. No it was not, it was a personal remark addressed to the Minister. I always allow general remarks to pass. The right hon. Gentleman must not in this Chamber accuse anyone of being a hypocrite.
§ Mr. HealeyIn deference to your earlier ruling, Mr. Speaker, I was not accusing the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary of anything—I was asking the right hon. Gentleman about his judgment.
§ Mr. PymIf there is hypocrisy about, it lies with the right hon. Gentleman. The IMF, to which we are a party, made a loan to Argentina and to many other countries. The IMF does not make decisions on a political basis, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows. A decision was taken and we were a party to it. If we were to reject it on political grounds there could be enormous trouble in other countries where the IMF is needed. As I said earlier, there is no doubt that the conditions imposed by the IMF in connection with the loan will inhibit Argentina.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe Foreign Secretary will understand that he is not free to accuse the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) of being a hypocrite. I am sure that he would wish to do as the right hon. Gentleman did, when he withdrew any suggestion that he called the Minister a hypocrite.
§ Dr. OwenWill the Foreign Secretary confirm that the British Government authorised British banks to lend money to Argentina because they feared the consequences of financial collapse on the internal stability of Argentina? Having made that decision, which was wise, is it not logical that the Government should open discussions with Latin America and Argentina to avoid the consequences of fortress Falklands and a future war with Argentina?
§ Mr. PymI am not sure that that follows. The United Kingdom has played its full part in the international financial arrangements and discussions, not only in connection with Argentina, but with Mexico, Brazil and other countries. That is in the general interests of our country.
Mr. McCrindieI understand all the difficulties to which my right hon. Friend referred, but is it not true that Argentina is replacing, almost with impunity, many of the weapons lost during the Falklands war? Accepting that the source of supply of the new weapons appears to be our partners in the EC, will my right hon. Friend redouble his efforts—perhaps through specific discussions—to curb the flow of weapons to Argentina?
§ Mr. PymI share my hon. Friend's anxiety. I am doing everything that I can. I shall constantly look for ways of making further and, I hope, more effective representations.