§
`(1) It shall be the duty of the Electricity Council and the Boards to inform, collectively or separately, those organisations recognised by them for the negotiation of terms and conditions of employment of the general plans and arrangements of the Electricity Council and the Boards for performing their functions in relation to the supply of electricity.
(2) The Electricity Council and the Boards shall consider any representation or report made to them by the organisations as defined in subsection (1) above.'.—[Mr. Palmer.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. PalmerI beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
When the Bill was in Committee a useful new clause was tabled. It dealt with consumers' councils. There have always been statutory area consultative councils, but the Electricity Consumers Council is voluntary. The amendment was agreed in Committee. The proposal is that the Electricity Consumers Council should have statutory force. I believe that both sides of the House are in favour of that.
I am not a syndicalist in these matters. I believe in the principle that if industries are brought into national ownership it should be for the good of the community. There may be those in other industries who would prefer to see their industries run on the syndicalist principle. I am not one of them. The British people are the owners of the electricity supply industry and it should be run in the consumers interests.
There should, therefore, be a statutory consumers council to deal with grievances and to ensure that the electricity boards pay attention to those grievances and make any necessary changes. Where charges are thought to be unreasonable, consumers should have an opportunity, both nationally and locally, of making representations through consumers councils and perhaps finally of having the matter considered by the Minister. The principle is that the consumer should be brought intimately into association with the working of the industry.
I do not believe that statutory bodies are enough. Electricity boards are often judged by the man and woman in the street by whether they get good service in electricity showrooms. Nevertheless, statutory machinery is important. We are not against the changes made in Committee which turned the voluntary, more informal Electricity Consumers Council into a statutory body, but the new clause proposes to extend the principle of giving maximum information to consumers to employees of the industry. Surely they should have just as much information about the working of the boards, costs, prices and policies as consumers. There should be a proper balance between the two. The new clause provides:
(1) It shall be the duty of the Electricity Council and the Boards to inform, collectively or separately, those organisations recognised by them for the negotiation of terms and conditions of employment"—753 that is a way of describing trade unions, and is a form of words that has been used in previous legislation relating to the electricity supply industry—of the general plans and arrangements of the Electricity Council and the Boards for performing their functions in relation to the supply of electricity.I believe that the principle which has ben applied to consumers should apply to employees through their representatives and trade unions. Therefore, the clause continues:(2) The Electricity Council and the Boards shall consider any representation or report made to them by the organisations as defined in subsection (1) above.'.This is a perfectly reasonable new clause. We are told, and we read in all the books and pamphlets on management, that it is the first duty of modern management to consult employees through their elected representatives. I cannot see why there should be any difference of principle between the two sides of the House. All hon. Members are consistent in their belief in the need for maximum information and that where there are disagreements over policy the causes should be examined.7 pm
It may be argued—I rather suspect that this will be the case—by Ministers that the right of employees to consultation through their trade unions is already enshrined in legislation which is common, I believe, to all nationalised industries, stating that the boards must consult the unions on the establishment of machinery for negotiation of wages, salaries and conditions. There is also the joint consultation provision which means in this case that the electricity boards must consult trade unions and bodies and organisations representing employees on health, safety and welfare and also, I believe, on the efficiency of the boards' services.
A complaint of the unions often put to the boards is that the boards sometimes interpret the obligation as a duty laid upon them to consult on policy once that policy has been decided. It is not often that the boards say to the unions, "We are proposing to do this or that. What do you think?" The boards make up their minds and tell the unions what they propose, asking the unions whether they wish to modify or change the proposals and seeking their cooperation.
That approach is usually defended under the old title of managerial prerogative. It does not amount, in my view, to full and modern consultation. Under the new clause, there would be a duty on the Electricity Council and the boards to inform collectively or separately. The boards would presumably inform the national consultative council and the regional consultative councils representing consumers of their plans in advance of decisions being made. I cannot imagine that many consumer representatives would be satisfied with a procedure under which the boards decided what to do before asking for views on that decision. I am using a parallel argument in justification of the new clause. I hope that I receive a favourable response.
§ Mr. John SpellarMy hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) has talked about consumer councils. Like my hon. Friend, I have no wish to underplay their role in monitoring and feeding into the work of the electricity supply industry the views of consumers. Inevitably, however, the link between 20 million consumers and those who sit on the body is slightly tenuous in spite of the good work that is done. The link between 150,000 electricity supply workers and their trade 754 union representatives is considerably stronger. There is a feeling that the consultative procedure for the unions in the industry should not merely be post hoc notification of decisions already taken but that greater involvement of representatives of the work force is needed.
I am aware that arrangements already exist in the industry for consultation. Those arrangements are not always operated in the spirit that we hope would occur. There has only recently been the case of the cross-channel cable link and the ship that will be used to implement it. Those in the electricity supply industry feel keenly that it was only when this matter became the subject of strong debate that they were even informed that the CEGB was proposing to lease a cable-laying ship that would be bought in South Korea and that the building of the ship would effectively be financed by the CEGB.
Many unions with an interest in the electricity supply industry feel strongly that the future market of the industry depends on the help of major basic industries such as shipbuilding and steel. It is fair to say that, following some initial problems, station closures are being handled better in the electricity supply industry than closures in other industries. Future investment and fuel policy have also been handled quite well. There is still obviously a need for improvement and refinement of the system. It would be appropriate, when discussing legislation that will give greater statutory teeth to the consultative council, to beef up the consultation between the industry and the representatives of employees in the industry.
§ Mr. GrayThe Government are committed to the principle of managements informing and consulting employees about matters that affect them. They have constantly urged companies to develop the procedures which are appropriate to their particular circumstances. Section 12 of the Electricity Act 1957 already requires the Electricity Council and the Scottish electricity boards to consult employees' organisations with a view to concluding agreements about conditions of employment, safety, health, welfare, education, training of employees and other matters of mutual interest, including efficiency in the operation of the services of the council and the boards.
I should like to say a few words about safety, a subject to which hon. Members attach special importance. We have had uppermost in our minds, in allowing for an expansion of private electricity generation, the need to maintain the highest standards of safety. We have had a full discussion on this subject, which the House always rightly treats with the greatest seriousness. I should like to emphasise the attention that we pay to the matter. We intend to replace the existing regulations with updated ones, to apply regulations both to the public and private sectors and to make new regulations as necessary.
We shall consult the Health and Safety Commission before making any regulations on health and safety matters. We shall not make any regulations that conflict with the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 or its relevant statutory provisions. We shall be keen to ensure that all aspects of the supply and use of electricity are fully covered by the regulations. Naturally, we keep under review the adequacy of the regulations. In this process, we shall be looking carefully to see whether there is need to strengthen them. I hope that the House will accept my assurance on that matter. Various joint bodies consisting 755 of employees' and employers' representatives have been established and are adequate to deal with any problems that might arise.
The duty of the Electricity Council and the CEGB to inform the Electricity Consumers Council of their general plans and arrangements follows on a national basis the existing duty already imposed by the 1947 Act on area boards which requires them to inform their area consultative councils of their general plans and arrangements. It also parallels provisions already contained in other Acts governing nationalised industries. None of these Acts provides a similar provision for consultation with the trade unions.
The points made by the hon. Members for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) and for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Spellar) were made to me at a meeting that I had with trade unionists at which the respective unions were represented. It was a useful meeting. We discussed many aspects of the Bill. The trade unions expressed appreciation of the fact that their points of view had been considered by the Government. I warned the trade unionists whom I met at that time that I was not prepared to give any commitment about their wishes. They said they would be making arrangements to have their view aired in the House. They said they would return to that point at some future date, which no doubt they will.
However, as I was saying, I see no reason to make an exception in the case of the electricity supply industry. Having registered their points, the Opposition might consider withdrawing the new clause.
§ Mr. PalmerWe cannot withdraw this new clause.
§ Mr. PalmerIn reply to my argument, the Minister said that this provision does not exist in the other statutes. That is not much of an argument. Time has passed. The new clause represents an advance. It can be argued that it means an additional instalment of consultations with employees in the electricity supply industry. That could well be extended to other industries. So the Minister's argument is as broad as it is long.
The right hon. Gentleman acknowledged that he had listened to the views of the unions, which he thought were quite reasonable; that they are entitled to as much information as electricity consumers. The unions are arguing not for syndicalism, that they should run the industry, but for the interests of those who work in it. They feel a responsibility to the community as a whole. The chairmen of the board do not operate the industry in an everyday sense. All the employees from the managerial side, both technical and administrative, through the financial mechanism to highly skilled technicians, skilled employees and unskilled employees make up the living industry.
When the unions met the Minister responsible, they argued that they should know just as much as the consumers so that they could serve them better. The right hon. Gentleman rejects that argument. He has not told the House why he rejects it. Perhaps he does not think it is necessary because such a clause is not in statutes affecting the other nationalised industries. When someone has listened to a good argument, he should accept that it is a good argument and consider it. I am sorry that the right 756 hon. Gentleman does not propose to support the new clause, and on behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends I propose to divide the House.
§ Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 173, Noes 195.
758| Division No. 86] | [7.15 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adams, Allen | Haynes, Frank |
| Allaun, Frank | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Alton, David | Home Robertson, John |
| Anderson, Donald | Homewood, William |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Hooley, Frank |
| Ashton, Joe | Howell, Rt Hon D. |
| Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) | Howells, Geraint |
| Bagier, Gordon AT. | Hoyle, Douglas |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Hughes, Mark (Durham) |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Beith, A. J. | Hughes, Simon (Bermondsey) |
| Bennett, Andrew (St'kp't N) | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillh'd) |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Campbell, Ian | Kerr, Russell |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Lambie, David |
| Canavan, Dennis | Leighton, Ronald |
| Carmichael, Neil | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) |
| Cartwright, John | Litherland, Robert |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Clarke, Thomas (C'b'dge, A'rie) | Lyon, Alexander (York) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson |
| Cohen, Stanley | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Coleman, Donald | McGuire, Michael (Ince) |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | McKay, Allen (Penistone) |
| Cowans, Harry | McKelvey, William |
| Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Crowther, Stan | Maclennan, Robert |
| Cryer, Bob | McNamara, Kevin |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | McTaggart, Robert |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Marshall, D(G'gow S'ton) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Davidson, Arthur | Martin, M (G'gow S'burn) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Maxton, John |
| Dewar, Donald | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Dixon, Donald | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen) |
| Dormand, Jack | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Dubs, Alfred | Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Morton, George |
| Eadie, Alex | Newens, Stanley |
| Eastham, Ken | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | O'Neill, Martin |
| English, Michael | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Park, George |
| Ewing, Harry | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Faulds, Andrew | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Flannery, Martin | Race, Reg |
| Ford, Ben | Richardson, Jo |
| Forrester, John | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Foster, Derek | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Foulkes, George | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Rooker, J. W. |
| Freud, Clement | Roper, John |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) |
| Ginsburg, David | Sever, John |
| Golding, John | Short, Mrs Renée |
| Gourlay, Harry | Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) |
| Graham, Ted | Silverman, Julius |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Skinner, Dennis |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) |
| Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith | Snape, Peter |
| Soley, Clive | Welsh, Michael |
| Spearing, Nigel | White, Frank R. |
| Spellar, John Francis (B'ham) | White, J. (G'gow Pollok) |
| Spriggs, Leslie | Whitlock, William |
| Steel, Rt Hon David | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Stoddart, David | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Stott, Roger | Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W) |
| Strang, Gavin | Williams, Rt Hon Mrs (Crosby) |
| Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) | Winnick, David |
| Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) | Woolmer, Kenneth |
| Thorne, Stan (Preston South) | Wright, Sheila |
| Torney, Tom | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Wainwright, E.(Dearne V) | |
| Wainwright, R.(Colne V) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster) | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Watkins, David | Dr. Edmund Marshall |
| Weetch, Ken | |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh |
| Ancram, Michael | Fraser, Peter (South Angus) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne) | Fry, Peter |
| Atkins, Robert(Preston N) | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) | Gardner, Sir Edward |
| Baker, Kenneth (St.M'bone,) | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Goodhew, Sir Victor |
| Bendall, Vivian | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Gow, Ian |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Gray, Rt Hon Hamish |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Greenway, Harry |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Grist, Ian |
| Blackburn, John | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hamilton, Hon A. |
| Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Brinton, Tim | Hannam, John |
| Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Hawksley, Warren |
| Brotherton, Michael | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) | Heddle, John |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Hicks, Robert |
| Budgen, Nick | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Burden, Sir Frederick | Hill, James |
| Butcher, John | Holland, Philip (Carlton) |
| Butler, Hon Adam | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Irvine, RtHon Bryant Godman |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) |
| Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Jessel, Toby |
| Chapman, Sydney | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Kimball, Sir Marcus |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Kitson, Sir Timothy |
| Cockeram, Eric | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Colvin, Michael | Knox, David |
| Cope, John | Latham, Michael |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Critchley, Julian | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Crouch, David | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'Ioo) |
| Dover, Denshore | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Loveridge, John |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Luce, Richard |
| Durant, Tony | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | McCrindle, Robert |
| Eggar, Tim | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Elliott, Sir William | MacKay, John (Argyll) |
| Fairgrieve, Sir Russell | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Fell, Sir Anthony | Major, John |
| Fenner, Mrs Peggy | Marlow, Antony |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | Marten, Rt Hon Neil |
| Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) | Mather, Carol |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles | Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus |
| Mawby, Ray | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Shepherd, Richard |
| Mellor, David | Sims, Roger |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Speed, Keith |
| Moate, Roger | Speller, Tony |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Spence, John |
| Moore, John | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Murphy, Christopher | Stanley, John |
| Myles, David | Stokes, John |
| Neale, Gerrard | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Newton, Tony | Thompson, Donald |
| Onslow, Cranley | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Osborn, John | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Page, John (Harrow, West) | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | Trippier, David |
| Parris, Matthew | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Patten, John (Oxford) | Waddington, David |
| Pawsey, James | Wakeham, John |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Walker, B. (Perth) |
| Pollock, Alexander | Waller, Gary |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Warren, Kenneth |
| Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) | Watson, John |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Wells, Bowen |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Rees-Davies, W. R. | Wheeler, John |
| Renton, Tim | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Wilkinson, John |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Williams, D.(Montgomery) |
| Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Wolfson, Mark |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Rost, Peter | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R. | |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Mr. Ian Lang and |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Mr. Douglas Hogg. |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.