§ Question again proposed.
§ Mr. CanavanI thought, Mr. Speaker, that you were going to follow the will of your predecessor in calling me to order, but I now realise that it was just the Ten o'clock motion.
Since Labour got effective control of Stirling district council in 1980, a campaign of continued victimisation — indeed, a vendetta — has been conducted by the Secretary of State for Scotland who, I repeat, has a vested interest, and whose lug is very open to the blandishments of the local Tory establishment when it says to him, "Why do you not get a grip of this Left-wing element who are supposed to be in control of Stirling district council?" We have seen that taking place, even to the extent of gerrymandering of the constituency boundary so as to bring the hon. Member here. The councillors of Stirling district, some of whom have travelled the many hundreds of miles her tonight to listen to this debate, and who will go back again to represent their people, have a much better mandate than the Secretary of State for Scotland has to represent the people. It is about time that the Secretary of State realised that.
I put a question to the Secretary of State: why is there this victimisation? When the Government were elected in 1979 they claimed that they would reduce public expenditure. That was their great aim, and that is what all this is supposed to be about, according to the Secretary of State. He says "We need to reduce public expenditure, and therefore we have to hammer the likes of Stirling district council."
Since 1980, shortly after the Secretary of State was returned as Secretary of State—appointed as Secretary of State, rather, because he was never returned, certainly not by the people of Scotland—since the time when he became the Prime Minister's placeman to look after Scotland, supposedly, we have had a 12 per cent. increase 656 in central Government expenditure, and a 3 per cent. decrease in local government expenditure. In other words, local government is doing its best, rightly or wrongly, to meet expenditure targets, and it is meeting those targets far more successfully than central Government. Part of the reason for that, of course, is the massive increase in unemployment, in that it means an increase in public expenditure, and the massive increase in defence expenditure, such as the £10,000 million-plus which the Government plan to spend on Trident and which they are attempting to foist on the people of Scotland, despite the fact that the vast majority of those people want nothing to do with it. Those are the priorities of public expenditure. [Interruption.] What is the hon. Member for Crawley (Mr. Soames) laughing at? Does he not realise that the majority of people in Scotland want nothing to do with Trident? I have never seen him here before, but I put to him a question: can he point to any person ill Scotland, apart from these balloons on the Front Bench, who are supposed to be representing but in fact are misrepresenting the people of Scotland, who would rather £10,000 million be spent on Trident than on the National Health Service or local government services—housing, health, education, services for the elderly, sick, disabled and children? Local priorities for expenditure and the principle of local democracy are at stake. This Government pay lip-service to local democracy.
At the election the Government were rejected by over 70 per cent. of the people of Scotland. They received no mandate to impose their iniquitous policies on the Scottish people. A Scottish Assembly is the only way in which local government can be dealt with in Scotland, but some hon. Members will disagree with me about that. The Government are imposing over-centralisation so that the people of Stirling, Lothian, Glasgow and Kirkcaldy are victims of an over-centralised decision-making process at Westminster. English Tory Members, who have never even listened to my sweet words or those of any other Scottish Labour Member, are being dragooned into the Lobbies to follow like sheep the Prime Minister and the Tory Secretary of State for Scotland without knowing the need or the priorities of the Scottish people. Tory Members will determine the level of services in Scotland.
Local authorities were elected in Scotland with a better mandate than the Tory Members representing English constituencies, the Tory Secretary of State who represents only a tiny minority of the Scottish people, or the hon. Member for Stirling, who represents only a tiny minority of people in the Stirling district.
§ Mr. Michael Forsythrose—
§ Mr. CanavanI shall give way, since the hon. Member for Stirling represents at least part of the gerrymandered constituency.
§ Mr. ForsythI do not know that there is a great difference between the leader of the council and the Secretary of State. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the leader of the district council, with his mandate, was quoted, prior to the general election, in the Stirling Observer as saying that if the Tories promised to cut the rates by 3p then he would cut the rates by 3p and steal their thunder. The Secretary of State is giving him a chance to honour that promise.
§ Mr. CanavanI am sure that the leader of the Labour group on Stirling district council is capable of defending 657 himself. If Fallin, Plean, Cowie and Throsk had been in the Stirling constituency instead of being gerrymandered across the water by Sheriff Taylor, a Tory placeman, the hon. Member for Stirling would not be here to speak on behalf of the Tories in Stirling. We are in a ridiculous situation because the heir to the Marquess of Lothian is dictating, not just to the people of Lothian, but to the people of Bannockburn and to the other people of Stirling district. The Secretary of State laughs, because he and his family are quite well off. His family is aristocratic, like the Marquess of Lothian's family. It is ridiculous that Scotland should be ruled by a load of blue-blooded aristocrats who have no contact whatever with working-class people. Conservative Members laugh, but it is true. The son of the Viscount is telling us that we should vote for him tonight, and the son of the Marquess is defending what the son of the Viscount proposes. What sort of democracy is that? They have sent one of their placemen sheriffs to gerrymander a constituency to ensure the return of a Tory Member of Parliament who has spent much of his time in London local government and knows nothing at all about the people of Bannockburn, Gargunnock, Cambusbarron, St. Ninians, Raploch or anywhere else for that matter. He says that he is coming down here to represent their cause. Like hell — he is coming to misrepresent it.
§ Mr. Barry Henderson (Fife, North-East)The hon. Gentleman has been talking about democracy and mandates, but has he noticed that there are more Scottish Conservative Members in the Chamber listening to him than Scottish Labour Members?
§ Mr. CanavanI think that there is something wrong with the hon. Gentleman's arithmetic. When it comes to the vote tonight we shall see, in all probability, what has often happened before. The majority of elected representatives from Scotland will vote against the motion, just as we have done many times before in the past four or five years. When we vote against Tory legislation we are outnumbered by Tory Members from south of the border who are drafted in at the last minute, who have not listened to the debate and who are being used as Lobby fodder. That is a sheer negation of democracy.
It is bad enough that the Secretary of State has no mandate from the people of Scotland, but the Government are now using the people of Scotland as guinea pigs for their Tory, anti-Socialist legislation. They used us as guinea pigs in the criminal justice legislation, by giving increased powers to the police of search and arrest. They used us as guinea pigs on local government legislation during the previous Parliament by taking powers away from the elected representatives of the people in local government and vesting more powers in the Secretary of State here, or in St. Andrew's house. Yet he has no mandate from the people of Scotland, The motion will only increase centralisation.
I appeal to those hon. Members who represent English consituencies and to enlightened Tory Members — if there are any, and if that is not a contradiction in terms —that if they listen to reason and believe in democracy, they should not go into the Lobby to vote for the motion out of prejudice and ignorance of the needs of the people of Stirling district, Lothian region, Glasgow and Kirkcaldy district. We are far more in touch with those people's 658 needs and far better able to articulate them than Tory Members. My friends in the council chambers in Stirling, Kirkcaldy, Glasgow and Edinburgh are even more capable than I am of articulating the needs of the local people, and have a far better mandate to try to bring about the necessary improvements on behalf of the people than the rest of us put together. Only with a Scottish parliament or legislative assembly shall we obtain the necessary legislative protection for our people, whether the legislation involves local government, the Health Service, or education. I appeal to all my Scottsh colleagues and colleagues from south of the border to accept the argument for Scottish devolution. If ever there were a case for it, here it is tonight. We have a Tory centralised Government who are dictating measures to the people of Scotland that are contrary to their needs and aspirations. Only by more devolution, more decentralisation and more home rule for the people of Scotland shall we see an improvement of our democratic processes. If we do not see that progress in the near future, we shall see an increased discrediting of whatever credibility is still left in this so-called mother of Parliaments.
§ Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North)I believe in this unitary Parliament. I have sat through three full days of debate in this Chamber attempting to participate in the debates. I have been attempting to do what the electorate in my constituency sent me here to do, to express their voice and their views. The usual channels have been putting pressure on me not to speak this evening, but I believe that principle is important. It is important when a Back-Bench Member sits through three full days of debate waiting for an opportunity to speak. It would be quite wrong to give up merely because the usual channels suggested that one should.
§ Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)Get on with it.
§ Mr. WalkerThe problems that brought these measures before us owe their origins to the black day when the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) had to go to the IMF, and when the then Secretary of State for Scotland was forced to introduce massive real cuts in local government expenditure. Central Government support for local authorities was likewise cut savagely.
§ Mr. FoulkesThe hon. Gentleman thought that the IMF was a furniture store.
§ Mr. WalkerThe effect of that has been felt substantially throughout Scotland. The Labour Government of the day were fortunate in that the non-Socialist local authorities, which were the principal authorities at that time, continued the convention of spending only within the limits that central Government deemed sensible in the financial and economic circumstances of the time. Since then some Labour councils have tried to regain the losses that were incurred as a result of the cuts in spending that were imposed by their own party while in government.
The convention that then existed has been discarded deliberately and wilfully. In its place has come a ritual annual battle between Labour-controlled local authorities and central Government. If we examine closely the spending programmes of the authorities that are the subject of the motions on the Order Paper, especially Stirling, we 659 see that they have recovered, relative to many other Scottish authorities, much of the ground that they lost when the IMF cuts were imposed. They have improved their position substantially relative to other authorities.
The rates imposed by the Stirling authority impose massive burdens on the employment creation areas within the district. The local authority adjacent to the Stirling authority is the one which has control within my constituency. It was referred to by the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan). There is no doubt that we can see at first hand what the differences are between the two authorities.
In an earlier debate I described the high-spending and high-rating authorities as vampires that obtain their sustenance by sucking the lifeblood of others. Every penny increase in the rates represents a massive rate burden. In the Stirling district, for example, the burden falls on the university and the health boards and runs into many hundreds of thousands of pounds. The health care funds for health boards hospitals and patients are being filched by the same councillors who will march and demonstrate when Health Service expenditure problems occur in their areas. In effect, they protest and demonstrate in some cases against the results of their own action. Is that not the world of the vampire and the madhouse? First drain the lifeblood from another public body, and then demonstrate and protest when the victim has obvious health and fitness problems.
A district increase in rates can have a savage and debilitating effect on education and social work costs—another example of one public body imposing a cost burden on another. The ones who suffer are the children in the schools and those in need of help from social work depts.
I refer to an area where the comparisons between the two authorities are clear—council house rents. Over 50 per cent. of rents of all council house tenants are paid in part or in full by Government funds. One does not have to be a mathematician to realise that, if council rents were set at an economic level, the district council would have a substantial inflow of funds from the Government because the imposed increase of rent for those already in receipt of assistance—the poorer council house tenants—would be paid in full by the Government. Therefore, if one looks carefully at the rate poundage in Stirling district and compares it with Perth and Kinross, Stirling—
§ Mr. CanavanOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to read out every word of his speech, although it was prepared by civil servants in the Scottish Office?
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)The hon. Gentleman will know that the use of notes is permitted during debates.
§ Mr. WalkerAs I mentioned in a Scottish Grand Committee debate, I use only my own briefs, not those of other people.
I was referring to rate poundages. For Stirling district it is 40p and for Perth and Kinross it is 14.5p. Further east in Angus, which is the other district that covers my constituency, it is 15.5p. One can see that Stirling is a high-spending local authority.
I shall cite one final example to show what I mean. Before the general election, Councillor Michael Connarty distributed leaflets at meetings in my constituency that 660 were printed by the district council. I invite him to return as often as he likes to my constituency to distribute leaflets. I am sad that the authority, and therefore the ratepayers of Stirling, had to pay for them. Those leaflets helped me substantially in my battle at the general election and in no small measure contributed to the fact that over 50 per cent. of the electorate voted for me, the Conservative. It is nonsense for the hon. Member for Falkirk, West to suggest that those of us who talked about Trident and nuclear-free zones—that is what the leaflets were about—had no impact on the electorate. It had a massive impact on the electorate in my constituency of Tayside, North.
§ Mr. AncramAfter a full debate, it is hardly for me to make detailed comments on the speeches, but I shall refer to the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mr. Forsyth) who, after all, whatever the view of the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) on mandates, has at least been mandated directly by the people of Stirling to speak on his behalf. I hope that the House listened carefully to what my hon. Friend said. He made clear the problems that were faced by the ratepayers of Stirling.
One point that was in a sense a new one was made by the hon. Member for Clackmannan (Mr. O'Neill). He talked of the comparitors that had been used in this case and mentioned that they had been changed. It is only right that I should give him some explanation for that. They were changed in 1982–83 and are now based on a systematic method that is based on the need to spend which, as I said earlier, is the fair method of assessing. That is why the change was made.
§ Mr. O'NeillWill the Minister concede that if, in the event of experience, the basis that he is choosing proves wrong—academic opinion seems to suggest it—and he changes comparitors again he he will consult local authorities to get their view on what the need to spend involves and not impose systems on local authorities as has been the case in the past?
§ Mr. AncramThe hon. Gentleman will be interested to know that there has been quite an industry studying comparitors used by the Secretary of State. There has been much comment on them already today.
Stirling district complained that its expenditure per head, of £68.89, was being compared with authorities with expenditure of £63.73 per head. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that, in Stirling district's submission, it suggested other comparitor authorities but they have lower average expenditure per head at £59.92. Moreover, two of them had a different range of functions.
Had Stirling gone for the comparitor that it suggested we should have examined, the gap between its expenditure per head and the average would not have been £3.81 but £8.97. Its position would have been a lot worse than it is now. I hope that that gives the hon. Gentleman some idea that the choice of comparators is not taken lightly. It is based, as far as possible, on an assessment of need to spend in comparison with other authorities.
The Opposition's case has not in any way answered the original points that I made. On its guideline excess of 29.5 per cent., Stirling was well above the average for district councils of 21.8 per cent. Its expenditure per head was 661 some £3 over the district average and, last year, despite the fact that the Secretary of State made it clear that he was giving Stirling time to adjust and expected further substantial expenditure reductions this year, the reductions that it made have been utterly insignificant. For that reason, its expenditure is excessive and unreasonable, and I ask the House to support the motion.
§ Question put:
§ The House divided: Ayes 198, Noes 138.
663| Division No. 40] | [10.27 pm |
| AYES | |
| Amess, David | Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) |
| Ancram, Michael | Hubbard-Miles, Peter |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Hunter, Andrew |
| Bright, Graham | Jackson, Robert |
| Bruinvels, Peter | Jessel, Toby |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Jones, Robert (W Herts) |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Key, Robert |
| Colvin, Michael | King, Roger (B'ham N'field) |
| Cope, John | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Corrie, John | Knight, Gregory (Derby N) |
| Crouch, David | Knowles, Michael |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Lawler, Geoffrey |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Dover, Denshore | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) |
| Dunn, Robert | Lightbown, David |
| Eggar, Tim | Lilley, Peter |
| Evennett, David | Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Lord, Michael |
| Fallon, Michael | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Farr, John | McCurley, Mrs Anna |
| Favell, Anthony | MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) |
| Fenner, Mrs Peggy | MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) |
| Fletcher, Alexander | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Forth, Eric | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Freeman, Roger | Major, John |
| Gale, Roger | Malins, Humfrey |
| Galley, Roy | Malone, Gerald |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Maples, John |
| Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde) | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Maude, Francis |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Gorst, John | Mayhew, Sir Patrick |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Mellor, David |
| Grant, Sir Anthony | Merchant, Piers |
| Gregory, Conal | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm'ds) | Miller, Hal (B'grove) |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Ground, Patrick | Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Mitchell, David (NW Hants) |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Moate, Roger |
| Hargreaves, Kenneth | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Harvey, Robert | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) |
| Hawkins, C. (High Peak) | Moynihan, Hon C. |
| Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk) | Murphy, Christopher |
| Hawksley, Warren | Neale, Gerrard |
| Hayward, Robert | Needham, Richard |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Nelson, Anthony |
| Heddle, John | Neubert, Michael |
| Henderson, Barry | Norris, Steven |
| Hickmet, Richard | Ottaway, Richard |
| Hicks, Robert | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Patten, Christopher (Bath) |
| Hirst, Michael | Pawsey, James |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Holt, Richard | Pollock, Alexander |
| Howard, Michael | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Powley, John | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Price, Sir David | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Raffan, Keith | Terlezki, Stefan |
| Rathbone, Tim | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover) | Thompson, Donald (Calder V) |
| Renton, Tim | Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Thorne, Neil (IIford S) |
| Robinson, Mark (N'port W) | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Roe, Mrs Marion | Tracey, Richard |
| Rumbold, Mrs Angela | Trippier, David |
| Ryder, Richard | Trotter, Neville |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Sayeed, Jonathan | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Viggers, Peter |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Sims, Roger | Walden, George |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Walker, Bill (T'side N) |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Waller, Gary |
| Speller, Tony | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Spence, John | Warren, Kenneth |
| Spencer, D. | Watts, John |
| Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) | Wells, Bowen (Hertford) |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Squire, Robin | Wheeler, John |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Whitfield, John |
| Stanley, John | Wilkinson, John |
| Stern, Michael | Wolfson, Mark |
| Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) | Wood, Timothy |
| Stevens, Martin (Fulham) | Yeo, Tim |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) | |
| Stradling Thomas, J. | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Sumberg, David | Mr. Ian Lang and |
| Taylor, John (Solihull) | Mr. Archie Hamilton. |
| NOES | |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Dixon, Donald |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Dormand, Jack |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Dubs, Alfred |
| Ashton, Joe | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Eadie, Alex |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Evans, Ioan (Cynon Valley) |
| Barnett, Guy | Evans, John (St. Helens N) |
| Barron, Kevin | Ewing, Harry |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Fatchett, Derek |
| Bell, Stuart | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Fisher, Mark |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Flannery, Martin |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Foster, Derek |
| Boyes, Roland | Foulkes, George |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Fraser, J. (Norwood) |
| Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | George, Bruce |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) | Godman, Dr Norman |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Golding, John |
| Bruce, Malcolm | Gould, Bryan |
| Caborn, Richard | Hamilton, James (M'well N) |
| Campbell, Ian | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) |
| Canavan, Dennis | Hardy, Peter |
| Clarke, Thomas | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Cohen, Harry | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Coleman, Donald | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) |
| Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) | Home Robertson, John |
| Corbett, Robin | Hoyle, Douglas |
| Cowans, Harry | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Craigen, J. M. | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Crowther, Stan | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Kennedy, Charles |
| Dalyell, Tarn | Kirkwood, Archibald |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Lambie, David |
| Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) | Lamond, James |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'I) | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Deakins, Eric | Lewis, Terence (Worsley) |
| Dewar, Donald | Litherland, Robert |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| McCartney, Hugh | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Robertson, George |
| McGuire, Michael | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Sedgemore, Brian |
| McWilliam, John | Sheerman, Barry |
| Madden, Max | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Marek, DrJohn | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Martin, Michael | Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Maxton, John | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E) |
| Meacher, Michael | Soley, Clive |
| Michie, William | Stott, Roger |
| Mikardo, Ian | Strang, Gavin |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Straw, Jack |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Thompsor, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Tinn, Jamos |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Nellist, David | Warden, Gareth (Gower) |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Wareing, Robert |
| O'Neill, Martin | Welsh, Michael |
| Park, George | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Patchett, Terry | Wilson, Gordon |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Winnick, David |
| Pike, Peter | Woodall, Alec |
| Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Randall, Stuart | |
| Redmond, M. | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) | Mr. Norman Hogg and |
| Richardson, Ms Jo | Mr. Frank Haynes. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§
Resolved,
That the Rate Reduction (Stirling District) 1983–84 Report, which was laid before this House on 7th July, be approved.