HC Deb 13 July 1983 vol 45 cc869-70
8. Mr. Foulkes

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has any proposals for improving the arrangements for the government of Scotland.

Mr. Younger

My colleagues and I are satisfied with the present arrangements but we are willing to consider specific proposals that may be suggested.

Mr. Foulkes

Does the Secretary of State, unlike the Prime Minister, recall that there was a specific pledge about this matter in the Conservative manifesto and that it is the Government's responsibility to bring forward proposals for improving the government of Scotland'? When will the Secretary of State introduce those proposals, which were foreshadowed in the Scottish Conservative manifesto, or is there to be yet another sell-out as there was by Lord Home on the last occasion?

Mr. Younger

The hon. Gentleman has not given his usual attention to detail. The wording in the Scottish Conservative manifesto was: We remain willing to consider further changes to improve the government of Scotland within the United Kingdom. That is a clear statement. If the hon. Gentleman has any specific changes to suggest, I shall consider them.

Mr. Corrie

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there we cannot have a halfway house for the government of Scotland? Either we are in the House as United Kingdom Members or we have a separate Government in Scotland. The people of Scotland do not want a separate Government.

Mr. Younger

I agree with my hon. Friend. It is clear that there is no sign that the people of Scotland have any desire for a further layer of government, with extra taxes on the Scots to pay for it.

Mr. Roy Jenkins

Does the Secretary of State agree that Lord Home's remarks during the 1979 referendum, to the effect that a future Conservative Government would bring forward a better scheme for devolution for Scotland, which is not altogether difficult to do, might have had a considerable effect on the balance of that result? Has the right hon. Gentleman totally jettisoned the proposal?

Mr. Younger

I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman. If he were to read what my noble Friend Lord Home said at that time, he would see that he made a balanced presentation of the case for and against. All that I am saying at this stage is that we consider that the present arrangements for government in Scotland are working well and we do not envisage any changes at the moment.

Mr. Fairbairn

Will my right hon. Friend please remind Opposition Members that what the Scots want more than anything else is less government and not more government, and whatever amount of government they want, the last thing they want is government by the Opposition?

Mr. Younger

I note what my hon. and learned Friend says. I have no doubt that his assessment of the views of the people of Scotland is correct. It is somewhat surprising that all this pressure comes from Opposition Members who have just fought a general election in which they lost 250,000 votes.

Mr. Donald Stewart

Even under the present arrangement, how can the government of Scotland be improved when there has been a cut in the Scottish share of public expenditure in addition to the cuts announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day and when £1 million of oil revenues is going from Scottish oilfields into the Treasury every hour?

Mr. Younger

The Scottish National party did not exactly receive a tremendous endorsement from the Scottish electorate as a whole. I advise the right hon. Gentleman not to raise the point about expenditure, as, on practically every count, Scotland receives per head of the population much more than either England or Wales.

Mr. McQuarrie

Does my right hon. Friend agree that during the lifetime of the last Parliament efforts were made to have all-party talks to discuss the government of Scotland, but they failed because members of the Scottish National party refused to take part?

Mr. Younger

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I noted that, but I thought that the Scottish National party was sensible not to take part, because it acknowledges that it is in favour, not of devolution, but of separation. The Scottish electorate made its view clear about that.

Mr. Millan

Is the Secretary of State aware that there will be no satisfactory way of dealing with Scottish affairs without the establishment of a Scottish assembly, and that we in the Opposition remain committed to that even if the right hon. Gentleman has reneged on his commitment to it?

Mr. Younger

The right hon. Gentleman has a lot more homework to do with Back-Bench Opposition Members. Everyone knows that there is not the remotest chance of getting all the Members even of the Scottish Labour party to support the procedure that he suggests.