Water Bill (Hansard, 18 January 1983)

§ Mr. Eric Ogden (Liverpool, West Derby)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Perhaps it might be convenient for you to consider, very early in our proceedings, a submission. New clause 5 appears on the Amendment Paper but not on the provisional selection list that was provided by Mr. Speaker. I emphasise the words "provisional selection list". May I make the point through you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to Mr. Speaker, that new clause 5 falls entirely within the purview of the Bill?
The Bill's title is the "Water Bill". The long title is: To make provision as to the constitution and procedure of water authorities and their borrowing and other powers"— I emphasise "and other powers". The long title also provides, unfortunately, for the dissolution of the National Water Council and seeks to repeal section 25(1)(d) of the Local Government Act 1974". Given that this is the Water Bill, that the long title includes the words "and other powers" and that the long title specifically allows for repeal of part of the Local Government Act 1974, I would ask you to submit to Mr. Speaker that new clause 5 should be debated. It states: In section 11 of the Local Government Act 1974"— which is referred to in the long title— (which provides for the statutory rate rebate scheme)"— and water authorities are to obtain their money on the basis of a rate scheme and of the rateable value of a house— after the word 'rates' in subsection (1) there shall be inserted the words 'including water rates'. Unfortunately new clause 5 is not at present included in the provisional selection list but it would give the Minister and the water authority the power to allow water rate rebates just as other authorities are entitled to give rate rebates on the rateable value of houses.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill)
The hon. Gentleman must not make a speech now. Has he concluded his point of order?

§ Mr. Ogden
No, Sir. I was suggesting that new clause 5 did nothing that was not referred to in the long title and which the Bill allows others to do. Will you draw to Mr. Speaker's attention my suggestion that it might be possible to debate and discuss this admirable new clause later?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
I think that I can help the hon. Gentleman. As the hon. Gentleman will understand, Mr. Speaker has made the selection. However, new clause 5 refers to section 11 of the Local Government Act 1974 and is out of order because that Act was repealed by the Social Security and Housing Benefits Act 1982.

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Stockport, North)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Might it not have been more helpful if the normal procedure for tabling amendments had been followed? We could then have tabled amendments yesterday instead of running the risk of having them starred. Surely it is in the best interests of the House that relevant issues are fully discussed. As a result of a change in the business of the House, hon. Members went away during the recess under the impression that they could spend yesterday getting their 188 amendments in order. However, they found on their arrival yesterday that it was too late to table amendments other than in the starred form. Although some hon. Members received the message that the Chair might adopt a different attitude towards starred amendments from usual, it was too late for those of us who wished to ensure a proper debate about rebates on the water rate to table amendments.
I should have thought that the procedures of the House would encourage the full and frank debate of such issues and would not prevent a debate because an hon. Member had failed to ensure that a reference in an amendment was completely accurate.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
It was perfectly possible to table amendments during the recess. I understand that Mr. Speaker has already selected some of the starred amendments, so the hon. Gentleman is not making a particularly sound point.