HC Deb 02 February 1983 vol 36 cc293-5
11. Mr. James Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many teachers are unemployed (a) in Scotland, and (b) in the Strathclyde region.

Mr. Alexander Fletcher

On 9 September 1982, the latest date for which information is available, 3,851 people were registered for employment as teachers in Scotland, of whom 1,657 were registered in Strathclyde.

Mr. Hamilton

Does the Minister recognise that those are not accurate figures, bearing in mind that many teachers are working in more menial jobs? Does he also recognise that it is now opportune to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio from 33:1 to 25:1? Does he agree that the supply of clothing and footwear for needy children should be a matter for the DHSS? If that were transferred back to the DHSS, Strathclyde alone could employ 125 more teachers. Will he pull his finger out and get cracking.

Mr. Fletcher

I am happy to say to the hon. Gentleman that the pupil-teacher ratios in Scotland are the best ever—14:1 in secondary and 22:1 in primary.

Mr. Maclennan

Why has the Secretary of State been so dilatory in bringing forward proposals to provide for a graduate teaching profession in Scotland? Why is he not protecting Scottish teachers, who will be disadvantaged and excluded from teaching in England and Wales as a result of the regulations introduced by the Secretary of State for Education and Science early last year?

Mr. Fletcher

The hon. Gentleman is questioning why my right hon. Friend should be carrying out careful consultations with the teaching authorities before making any announcement on the matter. If, as is unlikely, the hon. Gentleman ever has any responsibility for education in Scotland, the first thing that he will learn is the importance of such consultations.

Mr. Bill Walker

Does my hon. Friend agree that it was unrealistic over many years, with declining school rolls because of the decline in the birth rate, to continue to have teachers trained when there was no prospect of them ever finding jobs? We should use the opportunity now to weed out those who should no longer be teaching.

Mr. Fletcher

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct on his first point. If we had taken the advice of the Labour party, we would be producing more teachers today in the face of declining school rolls. The number of unemployed would be higher. However, the Government and the local authorities have taken a much more sensible view.

Mr. O'Neill

Does the Minister agree that yesterday's White Paper suggests that the teacher-pupil ratios in secondary education will deteriorate over the next three years? Instead of allowing for a reduction in teacher training there should be an increase, especially when one takes into account the challenges facing the teaching profession, with Munn and Dunning and so on. Is it any wonder that the report published at the weekend, reported in the press, stated that morale in the teaching service in Scotland is at its lowest ebb for 30 years?

Mr. Fletcher

That report was not particularly authoritative on that subject. The Government are taking fully into account the impact on teaching of, for example, the Munn and Dunning proposals. There is no getting away from the fact that the pupil-teacher ratios are the best ever, and that in Scotland there are the best opportunities this year, next year and in the years thereafter for improving the quality of education of our children, which is what the House wants.