HC Deb 21 December 1983 vol 51 cc417-9
7. Mr. John Carlisle

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent discussions have taken place between himself and the president of the English Rugby Union regarding the proposed tour of South Africa.

Mr. Macfarlane

My officials and I have had numerous discussions with the representatives of the Rugby Football Union. The president is well aware of the Government's views on the proposed tour.

Mr. Carlisle

I understand my hon. Friend's obligation under the Gleneagles agreement to discourage sporting contact with South Africa and his anxiety to promote sporting contacts with the Commonwealth, but will he, none the less, confirm that at the end of the day it will be the president of the English Rugby Football Union and his committee, not my hon. Friend, who will decide whether to tour South Africa? Will he promise the House that he will put no undue pressure or coercion on them?

Mr. Macfarlane

The Rugby Football Union will decide in the spring of next year whether the proposed tour will take place. I am in no doubt that if the tour were to take place it would have damaging repercussions on the whole of Commowealth sport. While my hon. Friend is entitled to hold his own views and to state them forthrightly, he must be aware of the wider context of sport throughout the Commonwealth.

I shall not speculate about the vote that will be taken by the 50-odd delegates of the Rugby Football Union on whether the tour will take place, but I acknowledge the right, which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has stated at the Dispatch Box before, of people to travel and be free to go anywhere in the world if they wish to do so. However, on this occasion I shall want to talk to the president of the Rugby Football Union next year to ensure that those concerned understand that at the recent Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Delhi we reaffirmed this country's commitment to the Commonwealth declaration of apartheid in sport.

Mr. Canavan

Apart from mere verbal condemnation, what exactly will the Minister do about the proposed tour next year by the English rugby team, and, indeed, the current tour of Wales by the South African youth rugby team? Is it not about time that the Government took action to impose a ban on such clear breaches of the Gleneagles agreement by the rugby authorities who, like the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle), not only encourage racialism, but are acting selfishly against the interests of more international sports, particularly the 1986 Commonwealth games in Edinburgh?

Mr. Macfarlane

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will try to maintain a little cool on this subject. It is traditionally now only rugby which is giving rise to problems over contact in sporting links with South Africa. Strides have been made by governing bodies in this country to exclude South Africa from any sporting itinerary. I regret that the Welsh rugby authorities have decided to proceed with the proposed tour. I urge them, even at this eleventh hour, to reconsider the wider implications for sport in the Commonwealth and in Wales. My hon. Friend the Minister of State, Welsh Office has urged the cancellation of the tour in the strongest terms. The tour is contrary to the spirit of the Commonwealth declaration on apartheid in sport. I cannot prophesy what I shall say to the president of the Rugby Football Union next year. The hon. Gentleman will be one of the last to know about it.

Mr. Stokes

Despite the supposed susceptibilities of the Commonwealth, why does my hon. Friend try to penalise South Africa, which is, after all, friendly to the West, at the same time as he welcomes games with Eastern bloc countries, which are our enemies?

Mr. Macfarlane

Perhaps my hon. Friend is not aware that just a few weeks ago my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister attended the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Delhi—

Mr. Stokes

It was not discussed there.

Mr. Macfarlane

I do not know how my hon. Friend knows, because I do not suppose that he was present throughout those discussions. But I have to tell him once again that the subject was on the agenda, and the Commonwealth declaration on apartheid in sport was upheld by all those present.

Mr. Hume

Does the Minister agree that the most evil form of discrimination is that based on a person's skin colour and that, although people may change their religions, or even their classes, they cannot change their skin colour? Does he agree, further, that a regime based on upholding that doctrine is evil and should get no support or sustenance from any quarter? If the Minister is serious about his disapproval of this proposed trip, why does he not tell the English Rugby Football Union that he will withdraw the passports of players proposing to take part?

Mr. Macfarlane

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's comments had some credibility, but his final sentence was absolute nonsense. He knows that there is no statute by which Ministers can withdraw passports.

We in this country understand only multiracial sport. I am told that in South Africa sport has made great strides in integration, but that recently Dr. Viljoen, the Minister for National Education, made it clear that school sport would remain segregated. That underlines some of the deeper problems. Anyone who underestimates the impact on Commonwealth sport seriously underestimates the current position.

Dr. David Clark

I congratulate the Minister on his stand on this issue. I assure him that he has the full support of every Opposition Member. May I ask him not to heed the extremist opinion held by some of his Back Benchers? The attitude of the English Rugby Football Union is extremely selfish. If it persists in this stupid tour it will put at risk the Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh in 1986. Although the Opposition do not approve, and would not approve, of the withdrawal of passports, I ask the Minister to use his best endeavours to persuade the Sports Council to tell the English Rugby Football Union that if it persists in this tour no money will be forthcoming from the council to the union.

Mr. Macfarlane

That is a well understood formula for the links between the governing bodies and the Sports Council whenever a tour such as this is proposed. I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's support for the Government's stand. Whether it is a happy position for a Minister to have to rely on the support of Opposition Members and not on much from his own Back Benchers, only time will tell.

These are important topics. Above all, I urge right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House to reflect upon the importance of Commonwealth sport. Rugby union football is a major Commonwealth sport.

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