§ Mr. HefferI beg to move amendment No. 80, in page 25, line 12, leave out clause 25.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 27, in page 25, line 38, at end insert—
'(lA) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, heating costs are to be taken into account only to the extent that they are reasonably incurred and only if the supply of heat or work done in connection with the supply of heat are of a reasonable standard. '.
§ Mr. HefferThe original idea was to have a lengthy debate on heating charges but that is not possible. I shall dispose of my notes and ask two questions. May we have an assurance that some pooling of heating charges will be allowed under the regulations? Will the regulations still 517 allow a degree of subsidy of heating costs from the general rate fund or elsewhere? It is clear that without those assurances some people will continue to pay tremendously high heating costs. Something should be done to assist them.
§ Mr. Simon HughesWill the Minister deal with my amendment? The clause allows the Minister to specify which proportion of the heating costs pertaining, for example, to a block shall be attributable to any particular tenant. In large tower blocks heating is often ineffective and very expensive. Constituents complain that they pay as much as £150 a quarter for no apparent heat. The higher the accommodation the colder it is because the less the heating works. Many thousands of people are affected.
Will the Minister ensure that under the regulations tenants whose heating systems are ineffective and are not value for money will pay only a proportion of a reasonable cost? Tenants should not have to pay for heating that exists only in theory. Tenants have to make high payments for little heat and they may freeze, if not to death, to the point of discomfort.
§ Mr. Wyn RobertsClause 25 proposes to give secure tenants two new rights. First, it gives them the right to information about the costs of their heating. Secondly, it gives them the right to pay no more than a reasonable proportion of the costs.
District and communal heating charges are a source of complaint from secure tenants. Several hundred thousand tenants are on district heating systems and they receive little or no information about how the charges are made up or about the cost of producing the heat. There is no direct legal action that they can take if they want to challenge a heating authority.
The clause proposes to give secure tenants of local authorities and new town development corporations in England and Wales two new rights to ensure fair play between them and their landlords.
Under the first of the new rights heating authorities will be required by regulation to adopt methods for determining heating charges so that secure tenants supplied with heat from district and communal heating systems have the right to pay no more than their reasonable proportion of heating costs. There is no intention, nor is there power, for the Secretary of State to prescribe the methods.
Under the second new right regulations give secure tenants the right to require the authority supplying their heat information, in the form to be prescribed, about the costs of providing heat from generating stations or other installations for producing heat. Regulations will also give tenants the right to information about heating charges and require authorities to provide facilities for inspecting the accounts and for taking copies of extracts. Both these new rights—that the charges are apportioned reasonably and the right to information—would be brought about by regulations to be made by the Secretary of State, and we shall shortly consult the landlords' associations and other bodies as to the precise content of the regulations about information and about the timing of the introduction.
The Government can scarcely be unsympathetic to the principle behind amendment No. 27, which echoes schedule 19 of the 1980 Act. It would give tenants receiving heating through a communal or district heating 518 system a right of challenge in the courts as to the reasonableness of the charge and the standard of service. The court could fix charges, as it can under schedule 19.
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The difficulty about applying such a regime to the public rented sector is twofold. First, there are the varying legal provisions under which heat is supplied. Some authorities supply heat under part V of the Housing Act 1957, others under sections 11 and 12 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, and others under local legislation. Depending on the relevant statute in each case, authorities have varying degrees of discretion in their charging policies.
Secondly, there is the interface between heating charges and local authority rents. If a court moved to reduce the heating charge of a particular tenant, the effect on the tenant and others could vary enormously. For example, the tenant's charge could be reduced and his rent put up by the same amount, or his charge could be reduced and someone else's charge put up to balance the books, or charges in general could go down and the rate fund contribution go up.
It is difficult to envisage the courts trying to fix local authority rents in individual cases, notwithstanding the general provisions in section 111 of the 1957 Act. Reluctantly, we are also forced to conclude that it is impracticable to let them fix individual local authority heating charges. We think that what can in practical terms be exposed to challenge is the fairness of the apportionment method. We accept that this is a lesser right but, taken with the information provision, it is a worthwhile first step. There has been some reluctance to give tenants full information and expose these matters to local debate. Our proposals will ensure this without involving the courts in setting individual charges.
§ Mr. Simon HughesIf information obtained by tenants reveals that there are substantial numbers of tenants who are paying for nothing, can the Minister give an undertaking that his Department will consider the matter again so that there will, if necessary, be more effective powers to support the tenants' rights in this area?
§ Mr. RobertsI have said what there is to be said. We discussed the subject in Committee, and I have no more to add.
§ Amendment negatived.