§ Mr. Paddy Ashdown (Yeovil)I beg to move, in page 74, line 28, at end add—
`(2A) Grants made by local authorities under subsections (1) and (2) above shall be exempted for the purposes of calculating local government overspending.'.1215 As the House knows, the Liberals, our colleagues in the Social Democratic party and others in the House have expressed considerable reservations about the general tenor of the Bill because it will not assure the continuation of the public service provision which we believe is necessary.I do not apologise for mentioning the problem of rural areas again—my hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Cromarty and Skye (Mr. Kennedy) did so eloquently last night. There are safeguards in the Bill and we recognise that they go some way towards solving some of the problems, but there is general anxiety about the survival of rural telephone boxes. I shall not deal with existing provision but, rather, will concentrate on that which might be provided in the future, especially the operation or laying of a cable system.
I am sure that those who are more expert in this form of technology than I know that, although cable will come in on the back of the entertainment industry, it will make a profound impact on those who enjoy the new facilities. It will enable them to have special advantages in running businesses and creating employment. The same is true for cellular radio. There is a danger that there will be a division in the provision of new technology between those who have it and those who do not. When the provision of cable and cellular radio, for example, is discussed on purely commercial considerations, rural areas might well suffer significantly because the new technology is introduced late or because its provision in rural areas is not economically viable.
I have a map which demonstrates British Telecom's considerations with regard to introducing cellular radio. It is significant that large areas of Britain, especially rural ones such as my constituency, are large holes in a map which otherwise shows adequate coverage. North Cornwall and parts of northern England are also represented as gaps on the map. We should be better off if we were able to question the distribution of such provision.
The Government's proposals under clause 82 allow—and we welcome this—local authorities to intervene to secure that public service provision. To some extent this seems to be a tacit admission that the safeguards the Government have built in and lay so much emphasis on are rather less certain in their minds than they are in ours. That tacit admission of the inadequacy of the safeguards is reflected in the wording of clause 82. The wording says something positive, but under the current provision nothing is likely to be done.
As we all know, with the significant power recently drawn away from local authorities by the operation of the rate-capping provision, and after the statement of the Secretary of State yesterday drawing the net even tighter round local government bodies, the capacity to intervene in a significant manner to ensure that those vital new provisions and existing provisions are safeguarded will be significantly limited, because local authorities will come up against the penalties of going over the top of their spending limits. If the Government mean what they say in clause 82, they would wish to see local authorities intervening to make good deficiencies in service that may occur in future. We wish to give local authorities the 1216 freedom which clause 82 claims to give them, but which we know does not exist because of the limitations placed on local government freedom and expenditure.
The amendment seeks only to give real rather than rhetoric meaning to clause 82. I therefore urge the Government, even at this late hour, to recognise that need, as they have come some way towards recognising it, for the social provision of telecommunications and to accept the amendment which would undo a little of the damage which otherwise may be done by the rest of the Bill.
§ Mr. ButcherI should like to explain briefly what clause 82 does. It enables local authorities to contribute towards telecommunications facilities in their area. There is nothing new in this. It simply continues the present power of local authorities to contribute towards public call boxes in their areas. I stress that we are not looking to local authorities to make any substantial contribution towards the cost of providing call boxes. The primary responsibility for providing the call box network will rest with BT and it will be obliged to provide the existing network of call boxes, through a condition in its licence. The House has debated this matter on many occasions.
The amendment is based on a slight misunderstanding of the position. I presume that the intention is to ensure that local authorities do not suffer grant withdrawal penalties on account of spending on call boxes. However, of the few contributions that are made, most come from the parish councils, which do not receive rate support grant anyway.
Not only, therefore, is the amendment unnecessary, but in any case there already exist well-established procedures whereby any local authority that thinks that any specific item of expenditure should not count towards its spending total can make representations to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.
§ Mr. AshdownThe Under-Secretary of State said that the majority of contributions will come from parish councils, but, as he well knows, that spending from parish councils is added on to the district council rate targets and will have a significant impact on that area of provision. Indeed, it will have a knock-on effect, because district council spending can be put over the rate limit, with the result that it will come under the rate-capping provisions like everything else.
§ Mr. ButcherIt is for local authorities to determine their own priorities. It would be unfortunate if we started picking off various services which could be discounted against a rate support grant allocation.
Therefore, the amendment is not acceptable.
§ Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed)The Minister began to say something important. He seemed to say that the situation that arises under the Bill would bring about no more expenditure by local authorities in support of telecommunications facilities. He seemed to be genuinely of the view that there would be no new call on local authorities to support telephone boxes or other forms of telecommunications provision, even under the more commercial competitive atmosphere which he hopes will feature in telecommunications in future. I hope that that matter can be clarified by way of intervention if necessary.
If the Minister genuinely believes that the Bill will not lead to a greater call on local authorities for any of the social provisions associated with the telephone industry, 1217 I think that he is saying something which nobody on this side of the House has believed from the beginning of the Bill to the end. The recent debates in the House underline the point. The concern expressed for the disabled, and earlier debates on various kinds of social provision, as well as the rural aspects, all presuppose that someone else will have to pay for some of the provisions traditionally provided by British Telecom.
If the hon. Gentleman does not believe that there will be a greater call on local authorities, he must believe that the competitive atmosphere will have no effect on British Telecom, in which case he undermines the case for the Bill. Can he therefore clarify whether he thinks local authorities will not have any new calls made upon them?
§ Question put, That the amendment be made: —
§ The House divided: Ayes, 177, Noes, 310.
1220| Division No. 108] | [6.55 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Evans, John (St. Helens N) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Fatchett, Derek |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Faulds, Andrew |
| Ashton, Joe | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Fisher, Mark |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Flannery, Martin |
| Barnett, Guy | Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim) |
| Barron, Kevin | Foster, Derek |
| Beggs, Roy | Foulkes, George |
| Bell, Stuart | Fraser, J. (Norwood) |
| Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Freud, Clement |
| Blair, Anthony | George, Bruce |
| Boyes, Roland | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) | Godman, Dr Norman |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Golding, John |
| Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) | Gould, Bryan |
| Bruce, Malcolm | Hamilton, James (M'well N) |
| Caborn, Richard | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Hardy, Peter |
| Campbell, Ian | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith |
| Canavan, Dennis | Haynes, Frank |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y) | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Home Robertson, John |
| Clarke, Thomas | Howells, Geraint |
| Clay, Robert | Hoyle, Douglas |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) | Hughes, Mark (Durham) |
| Cohen, Harry | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Coleman, Donald | Hughes, Roy (Newport East) |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | John, Brynmor |
| Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) | Johnston, Russell |
| Corbett, Robin | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Cowans, Harry | Kennedy, Charles |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Craigen, J. M. | Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil |
| Crowther, Stan | Kirkwood, Archibald |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Lambie, David |
| Cunningham, Dr John | Lamond, James |
| Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Lewis, Terence (Worsley) |
| Deakins, Eric | Litherland, Robert |
| Dewar, Donald | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Dixon, Donald | Loyden, Edward |
| Dobson, Frank | McCartney, Hugh |
| Dormand, Jack | McCusker, Harold |
| Douglas, Dick | McKay, Allen (Penistone) |
| Dubs, Alfred | McKelvey, William |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | McNamara, Kevin |
| Eastham, Ken | McTaggart, Robert |
| Edwards, R. (Whampt'n SE) | McWilliam, John |
| Evans, loan (Cynon Valley) | Madden, Max |
| Maginnis, Ken | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Marek, Dr John | Ross, Wm. (Londonderry) |
| Martin, Michael | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Sheerman, Barry |
| Maxton, John | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Meacher, Michael | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Meadowcroft, Michael | Skinner, Dennis |
| Michie, William | Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Mikardo, Ian | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E) |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Soley, Clive |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Molyneaux, Rt Hon James | Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles) |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Stott, Roger |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Straw, Jack |
| Nellist, David | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Nicholson, J. | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| O'Neill, Martin | Tinn, James |
| Park, George | Torney, Tom |
| Pendry, Tom | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Penhaligon, David | Weetch, Ken |
| Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | Welsh, Michael |
| Radice, Giles | White, James |
| Randall, Stuart | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Redmond, M. | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Richardson, Ms Jo | Winnick, David |
| Roberts, Allan (Bootle) | Woodall, Alec |
| Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Robertson, George | |
| Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Rogers, Allan | Mr. A. J. Beith and |
| Rooker, J. W. | Mr. James Wallace. |
| Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| NOES | |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Butterfill, John |
| Alexander, Richard | Carlisle, John (N Luton) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Amess, David | Carttiss, Michael |
| Ancram, Michael | Chapman, Sydney |
| Arnold, Tom | Chope, Christopher |
| Ashby, David | Churchill, W. S. |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) | Clarke Kenneth (Rushcliffe) |
| Baker, Kenneth (Mole Valley) | Clegg, Sir Walter |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Cockeram, Eric |
| Baldry, Anthony | Colvin, Michael |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Conway, Derek |
| Batiste, Spencer | Coombs, Simon |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Cope, John |
| Bellingham, Henry | Cormack, Patrick |
| Bendall, Vivian | Corrie, John |
| Benyon, William | Couchman, James |
| Berry, Sir Anthony | Crouch, David |
| Best, Keith | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Dover, Denshore |
| Bottomley, Peter | du Cann, Rt Hon Edward |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) | Dunn, Robert |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Dykes, Hugh |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Evennett, David |
| Bright, Graham | Eyre, Reginald |
| Brinton, Tim | Fallon, Michael |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Farr, John |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Favell, Anthony |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Browne, John | Forman, Nigel |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Fraser, Peter (Angus East) |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Freeman, Roger |
| Burt, Alistair | Fry, Peter |
| Butcher, John | Gale, Roger |
| Butler, Hon Adam | Galley, Roy |
| Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde) | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Madel, David |
| Goodhart, Sir Philip | Major, John |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Malins, Humfrey |
| Gorst, John | Malone, Gerald |
| Gow, Ian | Maples, John |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Marland, Paul |
| Greenway, Harry | Marlow, Antony |
| Gregory, Conal | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm'ds) | Mates, Michael |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) | Maude, Francis |
| Grist, Ian | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Ground, Patrick | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Grylls, Michael | Mayhew, Sir Patrick |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Mellor, David |
| Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) | Merchant, Piers |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Miller, Hal (B'grove) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) |
| Hannam, John | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Hargreaves, Kenneth | Mitchell, David (NW Hants) |
| Harvey, Robert | Moate, Roger |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Hawkins, C. (High Peak) | Moore, John |
| Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk) | Morris, M. (N'hampton, S) |
| Hawksley, Warren | Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) |
| Hayward, Robert | Moynihan, Hon C. |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Mudd, David |
| Heddle, John | Neale, Gerrard |
| Henderson, Barry | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hickmet, Richard | Neubert, Michael |
| Hicks, Robert | Newton, Tony |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hind, Kenneth | Norris, Steven |
| Hirst, Michael | Onslow, Cranley |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Oppenheim, Philip |
| Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) | Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S. |
| Hooson, Tom | Osborn, Sir John |
| Hordern, Peter | Page, John (Harrow W) |
| Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) | Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford) | Parris, Matthew |
| Hubbard-Miles, Peter | Patten, Christopher (Bath) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral) | Patten, John (Oxford) |
| Hunter, Andrew | Pawsey, James |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Irving, Charles | Pollock, Alexander |
| Jessel, Toby | Porter, Barry |
| Johnson-Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Powley, John |
| Jones, Robert (W Herts) | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Price, Sir David |
| Kershaw, Sir Anthony | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'field) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston) | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Knowles, Michael | Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover) |
| Knox, David | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Lang, Ian | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Latham, Michael | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Lawler, Geoffrey | Robinson, Mark (N'port W) |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Rost, Peter |
| Lester, Jim | Rowe, Andrew |
| Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Lightbown, David | Ryder, Richard |
| Lilley, Peter | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Lloyd, Ian (Havant) | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Lord, Michael | Scott, Nicholas |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| McCrindle, Robert | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| McCurley, Mrs Anna | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| MacGregor, John | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) | Shersby, Michael |
| MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) | Silvester, Fred |
| Maclean, David John. | Sims, Roger |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) | Trippier, David |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Speed, Keith | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Speller, Tony | Viggers, Peter |
| Spence, John | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Spencer, D. | Walker, Bill (T'side N) |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester) |
| Squire, Robin | Wall, Sir Patrick |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Waller, Gary |
| Steen, Anthony | Walters, Dennis |
| Stern, Michael | Ward, John |
| Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Stevens, Martin (Fulham) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Watson, John |
| Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) | Watts, John |
| Stewart, Ian (N Hertf'dshire) | Wells, Bowen (Hertford) |
| Stokes, John | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Sumberg, David | Wheeler, John |
| Tapsell, Peter | Whitfield, John |
| Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) | Whitney, Raymond |
| Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman | Wilkinson, John |
| Terlezki, Stefan | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. | Wolfson, Mark |
| Thomas, Rt Hon Peter | Wood, Timothy |
| Thompson, Donald (Calder V) | Woodcock, Michael |
| Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) | Yeo, Tim |
| Thorne, Neil (Ilford S) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Thornton, Malcolm | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Thurnham, Peter | |
| Townend, John (Bridlington) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) | Mr. Carol Mather and |
| Tracey, Richard | Mr. Robert Boscawen. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ 7.7 pm
§ It being after Seven o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Order [21 November] and the Resolution yesterday, to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.