§ Mr. Michael Latham (Melton)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You are the guardian of the procedures of the House. Surely it is unnecessary to bring in a Bill to allow for the televising of Select Committees. It is a matter for a vote of the House and nothing else.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe House will make up its mind in a few minutes.
§ Mr. Austin Mitchell (Grimsby)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable select committees of both Houses of Parliament to be televised.The purpose of my proposed Bill is to strengthen the Select Committees by allowing them to reach the public directly when they choose to do so, and to allow the House to conduct a controlled experiment with television both to review its unjustified fears about the media and to see some of the benefits that television can bring. The argument about televising the procedures of the House is long-standing, and there have been two ten-minute Bills on it during this Parliament. They have shown that opinion on it in the House is evenly divided.
The arguments against televising concentrate on changing the nature of this deliberative Chamber. I do not accept those arguments, but this Bill would sidetrack them because it applies only to Select Committees which would allow television at their discretion. I wish my Bill to be considered in that light, and not in the light of the general arguments about the televising of the proceedings in the Chamber.
Select Committees are different from the Chamber. The Chamber is a deliberative body whereas the Committees investigate. The Chamber has a general view on broad issues, but the Committees are specialised. The Chamber has a large element of the stage about it, but the Committees are serious. They hear outside experts and authorities and subject them to intensive interrogation and investigation. The Chamber is the province of all hon. Members, but Committee work is a voluntary activity and a chance to work in a different and much more rewarding way by following up specialised interests.
It was probably that difference between the Chamber and the Select Committees that led the Liaison Committee, which is made up of Committee Chairmen, to say in paragraph 87 of its first report on the functioning of the new Select Committees:
We must place on record the conviction of most of us that the work of select committees would not be damaged, and might be considerably enhanced, if it took place with television cameras present.I agree with that view. Select Committees are the most important and welcome development in the House in decades. I am proud to be a member of the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committeee, and it has been the most exciting and intellectually demanding part of my experience as a Member of Parliament.I want to strengthen those Committees, and this measure would do so, first, because it removes an anomaly which was first pointed out by the Sub-Committee on Race Relations and Immigration as long ago as 1969 in its second special report—that other media can be present at public hearings but not television. That is not only an 806 invidious distinction but it creates problems, particularly when Committees meet outside the House. I am referring not to the Select Committee on Agriculture going round prodding pigs but to more serious inquiries such as the Sub-Committee on Race Relations and Immigration visiting the scene of the Bristol riots. On such occasions part of the Committee's proceedings are filmed by television, but just when the proceedings become most interesting, just when they start to hold the hearings, television is excluded. The result is that some television people can and do interview witnesses before or after they have given evidence, giving a partial and biased view of the Committee's work. That anomaly would be removed if the Committees were allowed, at their discretion, to have television cameras at their meetings.
Secondly, the presence of television cameras can and will sharpen a Committee's work, leading to better planned, better co-ordinated and better prepared questioning on the important subjects that are dealt with.
Thirdly, the presence of television cameras would strengthen Committees by drawing their work to the attention of the public—the wider audience—and interested and informed opinion. That would give Committees a firmer and stronger base which would be much more important to them than anything else possibly could be, when and if the going began to get rough and they encountered problems. There could be no firmer basis for the work of Select Committees than public interest and concern about what they are doing. Select Committees do far more than allow hon. Members to follow specialised enthusiasms and keep them off the streets. They are doing extremely important work, and that work needs to be drawn to the public's attention.
Fourthly, to televise the Committee's work would allow them to carry on the important popular role of educating the public. It would increase the amount of information on major and serious issues that is available to the public. It is invidious to create distinctions and say which Committees do the most interesting work. Not all Committees can have the drama or excitement of the Select Committee on Transport's inquiry into road maintenance. But the queen of the Committees—the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee—has carried out major inquiries into the intellectual basis of the Government's monetary policies which it found barely existed, into the international debt crisis, and into the exchange rate. It holds regular meetings with and interrogates the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Treasury officials and the governor of the Bank of England. All that has a major effect on jobs, interest and exchange rates and the economic future of Britain. Similarly, the Select Committee on Defence created much public interest as a result of its inquiry into the media and the Falklands.
Not necessarily all hearings will be obsessive peak time television viewing in the way that some American committee hearings, such as the Watergate hearing, have been, but in all Committees there is a public or a specialised interest which can be catered for on different levels by different channels and programmes. Committees can inquire into serious issues far better than television can. Television has been forced to take up that role partly because the House has not been seen to be doing it. I see no reason why the work of interrogation and inquiry should be left to whippersnappers and amateurs on television such as Sir Robin Day when it can be done so 807 much better by Members of the House with all the expertise and authority that membership of this House allows them.
The mechanics of my proposal are simple. It is better that Parliament should retain the ultimate control by creating a parliamentary television unit, as has been done successfully in Canada. That would provide fees for the outside broadcasting organisations which would decide on what basis and how they wanted to use such fees, whether to put items from Committee proceedings on news bulletins, to broadcast them live or as separate programmes, and, indeed, whether to broadcast them continuously on cable television. That decision would be up to them, but the House would retain the ultimate control. The television unit would prepare two Committee rooms for television with unobtrusive—far less obtrusive than some hon. Members—wall-mounted cameras and special lighting. Committees that wanted to hold televised hearings would be able to do so in those rooms.
Somebody such as myself who thinks that the House should be televised, as it will inevitably be at some future date, will see this proposal as a first step to that greater goal. That is the personal view of someone who believes that television must inevitably come into the Chamber if we are to be relevant to the world in which we live.
I ask the House today to consider my Bill not in that light but on its merits as something unique to the Select Committees that we have developed. The Committees are new and successful and the arguments against television in the Chamber do not apply to them. Both the Committees and television would benefit from this measure. They would be strengthened and, more important, the House would be strengthened because hon. Members will be seen to be doing what they should be doing—a serious job of inquiry in a serious and dedicated fashion. Therefore, they would be seen to be more relevant to our people and their problems than they are at present.
I commend the motion to the House and I ask the House, by its reaction today, to give a clear signal to the Government that it wants the Committees to be televised.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have received notice from the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) that he wishes to oppose the motion.
§ Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw)I have listened with great interest to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell). Perhaps he should ask himself why, if television cameras are such a good thing in what is essentially a committee of inquiry, no television cameras are allowed, for example, in the current Penlee lifeboat disaster inquiry. Why do not the courts allow the presence of cameras? I am sure that it would have been riveting television if a camera had been allowed inside the Old Bailey to film the trial of the Yorkshire Ripper. But that is not allowed in Britain because we have enough sense to realise that witnesses can be inhibited by the presence of cameras, making it much more difficult to extract information from them. On the other hand, some witnesses may become extrovert. I understand that Mr. 808 Ken Livingstone is appearing before a Select Committee at the moment, and I am sure that he would welcome the presence of cameras, as would Mr. Arthur Scargill.
What is the function of a Select Committee? Is it to achieve a considered, measured evaluation of a problem, or is it to obtain publicity for a cause or for a certain personality? I am a member of the Select Committee on Members' Interests. We are now considering professional lobbying organisations that have sprung up in the past few years. Some juicy information is now coming out. Had cameras been present, there would have been enough material to set off half a dozen investigations without waiting for the report to be published.
The television cameras would not be present all the time for every investigation. The companies would want to televise only the juicy bits. The only time that we hear broadcasts of proceedings in the House is at Prime Minister's Question Time when there is shouting, bawling and booing. That is always on the news at a quarter to six or nine o'clock. As a result the public are convinced that the House is like that all the time when it is not. We know that 99 per cent. of the time there is not such an uproar but the public has become convinced that that is what takes place because that is the controversial part that is extracted and presented.
Hon. Members have experience as members of Select Committees. We are not fools and we know when we have a good story. I was a member of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries and visited Hong Kong. Immediately, the press asked what we were doing going on a free joyride to Hong Kong. In fact, we were considering the nationalised Cable and Wireless company which had lost a £1 million contract in Hong Kong because it had employed a crook who had fiddled a contract. The only means of cross-examining the witnesses was the Select Committee procedure. When that report was published, there were no headlines that the Committee had done a good job in finding out what had gone wrong. The Select Committee probably saved the nationalised industry a great deal of money. However, the press is interested only in instant reaction, and that is the case against my hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend referred to Watergate. Ten years ago I went to the Watergate hearings—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah."] I went in August, paid my own fare and combined it with a holiday. I saw the televised hearings, and I assure my hon. Friends that they were a total shambles. People were crammed into the room 15 deep. Flash photography was taking place. The only thing missing was a man in a white coat selling hot dogs, popcorn and Coca-Cola. One day when I was there, Senator Sammy Ervin, the chairman, got so fed up that he said, "I am going fishing at two o'clock", shut the whole thing down and the press was in uproar. Should such an investigation into the President of the United States take place?
Is that the sort of jamboree for the cameras in which we should indulge? What about the McCarthy hearings? Senator Joe McCarthy built his rotten reputation on dragging Hollywood film stars before his televised committee so that they could plead the fifth amendment. He got all the publicity, and eventually his aide Nixon became Vice-President. That is the danger of the loophole which my hon. Friend, in his innocence, wishes to introduce in the House. Frankly, in a few years' time we 809 would regret such a move and would be angry at the way selected extracts had been misused. I hope that the House will reject the motion.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nominations of Select Committees at commencement of public business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 153, Noes 138
811| Division No. 111] | [3.50 pm |
| AYES | |
| Allaun, Frank | Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) |
| Ancram, Michael | Home Robertson, John |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Homewood, William |
| Arnold, Tom | Hooley, Frank |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Horam, John |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Howell, Rt Hon D. |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon k.(M'b'ro) | Howells, Geraint |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) | Lambie, David |
| Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S) | Lee, John |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Buck, Antony | Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W) |
| Canavan, Dennis | McCusker, H. |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | McElhone, Mrs Helen |
| Clarke.Thomas(C'b'dge, A'rie) | McGuire, Michael (Ince) |
| Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) | McKay, Allen (Penistone) |
| Crouch, David | McKelvey, William |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) | McNally, Thomas |
| Dalyell, Tam | McNamara, Kevin |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | McTaggart, Robert |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) | McWilliam, John |
| Deakins, Eric | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Dewar, Donald | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Martin, M(G'gow S'burn) |
| Dobson, Frank | Mates, Michael |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Mikardo, Ian |
| Dover, Denshore | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) |
| Dykes, Hugh | Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) |
| Eastham, Ken | Morton, George |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Neale, Gerrard |
| Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E) | Nelson, Anthony |
| Eggar, Tim | O'Brien, Oswald (Darlington) |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Onslow, Cranley |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Palmer, Arthur |
| English, Michael | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Ennals, Rt Hon David | Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) |
| Faith, Mrs Sheila | Radice, Giles |
| Farr, John | Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S) |
| Fitt, Gerard | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Flannery, Martin | Richardson, Jo |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Foster, Derek | Robertson, George |
| Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd) | Roper, John |
| Fraser, Peter (South Angus) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Gardner, Sir Edward | Rost, Peter |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Sandelson, Neville |
| George, Bruce | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Golding, John | Shersby, Michael |
| Gorst, John | Short, Mrs Renée |
| Graham, Ted | Skinner, Dennis |
| Greenway, Harry | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Soley, Clive |
| Hawkins, Sir Paul | Spellar, John Francis (B'ham) |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Speller, Tony |
| Haynes, Frank | Stevens, Martin |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire) |
| Henderson, Barry | Strang, Gavin |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Straw, Jack |
| Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) | Weetch, Ken |
| Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) | Wilson, William (C'try SE) |
| Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Wainwright, H.(Colne V) | Wright, Sheila |
| Walker, B. (Perth) | |
| Ward, John | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Wardell, Gareth | Mr. George Foulkes and |
| Watkins, David | Mr. Alfred Dubs. |
| Watson, John | |
| NOES | |
| Adley, Robert | Latham, Michael |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Alton, David | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Atkins, Robert(Preston N) | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Bagier, Gordon AT. | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Litherland, Robert |
| Bennett, Andrew(St'kp't N) | Lyon, Alexander (York) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | McCartney, Hugh |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Blaker, Peter | MacKay, John (Argyll) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | McKelvey, William |
| Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Bowden, Andrew | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Brotherton, Michael | Major, John |
| Budgen, Nick | Marlow, Antony |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Marten, Rt Hon Neil |
| Chapman, Sydney | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Churchill, W. S. | Mather, Carol |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | Mayhew, Patrick |
| Colvin, Michael | Moate, Roger |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Molyneaux, James |
| Conlan, Bernard | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Cope, John | Morgan, Geraint |
| Cowans, Harry | Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
| Crowther, Stan | Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Neubert, Michael |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Ogden, Eric |
| Dixon, Donald | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Dormand, Jack | Page, Richard (SW Herts) |
| Eadie, Alex | Parry, Robert |
| Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) | Pollock, Alexander |
| Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down) |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Fell, Sir Anthony | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Field, Frank | Renton, Tim |
| Fox, Marcus | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Goodhart, Sir Philip | Rooker, J. W. |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Royle, Sir Anthony |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Ryman, John |
| Grant, Sir Anthony | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Grieve, Percy | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Grylls, Michael | Smyth, Rev. W. M. (Belfast S) |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Spearing, Nigel |
| Hamilton, Hon A. | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Hardy, Peter | Stoddart, David |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Thompson, Donald |
| Hicks, Robert | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Holland, Philip (Carlton) | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) | Trippier, David |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Wainwright, E.(Dearne V) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster) |
| Irvine, RtHon Bryant Godman | Wall, Sir Patrick |
| John, Brynmor | Warren, Kenneth |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Welsh, Michael |
| Kerr, Russell | White, Frank R. |
| Kershaw, Sir Anthony | Whitlock, William |
| Kimball, Sir Marcus | Wickenden, Keith |
| Lang, Ian | Wilkinson, John |
| Winterton, Nicholas | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Wolfson, Mark | Mr. Neil Thorne and |
| Mr. Joseph Ashton. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Austin Mitchell, Mr. Jack Ashley, Mr. A. J. Beith, Mr. George Cunningham, Mr. Edward du Cann, Mr. Alfred Dubs, Mr. Roy Hattersley, Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith, Mr. Christopher Price and Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas.
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