HC Deb 25 October 1982 vol 29 cc818-32


Lords amendment: No. 23, after clause 16, insert: C.—(1) In section 13 of the 1974 Act (acts in contemplation or furtherance of trade disputes) subsection (2) shall cease to have effect. (2) In section 30 of the 1974 Act (interpretation), in the translation of "tort" as respects Scotland, for the words from "any" to "reparation" there shall be substituted the word "delict".

Mr. Tebbit

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Paul Dean)

With this we may consider Lords amendment No. 39.

Mr. Tebbit

The clause was tabled in another place by the Government as a direct result of a recent judgment in the Scottish courts. The case in question concerned a sit-in by workers at Plessey's Bathgate factory to protest about its closure. Plessey sought an interdict—for the benefit of southerners, that is an injunction—from the courts to have the workers removed. This was refused by both Houses of the Scottish Court of Session on the ground that section 13(2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974 might provide immunity in such cases.

It is fair to say that the decision caused surprise in legal circles. The tort which it was believed might have been developed in 1906—and that is where section 13(2) of the 1974 Act originates—was the tort of interference with business or trade. In fact, the law has not developed to create the tort of interference with business or trade, but, in so far as that area of law has developed, it has done so in the direction of interference with business or trade by unlawful means for which no immunity has ever existed.

9.30 pm

To develop the concept that an unlawful action—in this case trespass—has immunity if committed in order to interfere with business or trade would seem to point the law in a most dangerous direction. Certainly no one had previously thought that section 13(2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974 provided any protection to those who occupied factories or trespassed on private property.

More importantly, this decision also caused great concern in Scottish industry. There was an understandable fear that it might act as an encouragement to workers to occupy factories in Scotland and that this in turn could only be a further discouragement to business and investment in Scotland. These fears were increased when the judgment was greeted by the Scottish TUC as a "charter for sit-ins".

We believed that it was essential to move quickly to allay the fears of Scottish industry by nipping in the bud this unwelcome and unexpected extension of the law on immunities. We decided to do it by repealing section 13(2) of the 1974 Act altogether and by amending the definition of "tort" as regards Scotland. These two changes are contained in new clause C.

It has been suggested by some trade union leaders—we may hear the allegation again tonight from the Opposition Benches—that the repeal of section 13(2) is a further major incursion into trade union immunities and that it may put at risk the immunity which currently exists in section 13 for primary industrial action. I say categorically, therefore, that this is neither the intention nor the effect of the proposed repeal. I do not believe that those who take that view will be able to bring a shred of evidence to support their case.

Section 13(2) has probably been a dead letter since it first appeared in statute in the second half of section 3 of the Trades Disputes Act 1906. It was inserted in 1906 to guard against the possible reversal of the House of Lords' judgment in the 1898 case of Allen v. Flood, and thus the development of the tort of interference with business or trade to which I have referred. In fact, I think that it is now widely accepted that the tort never did develop and that the second part of section 3 of the 1906 Act and its successor, section 13(2) of the 1974 Act, therefore, provided no substantive immunity.

That was certainly the view of the Donovan commission in 1968 when it came to the conclusion: Strictly speaking…there would seem to be no need today for the second limb of section 3". That was section 3 of the 1906 Act. However, it concluded that the provision might as well remain on the statute book because it did no harm.

When the second limb of section 3 of the 1906 Act was re-enacted as section 13(2) of the 1974 Act, it was clear that the then Labour Government still regarded it as having no purpose other that to clarify the law. Indeed, they even went so far as to preface the provision with the words for the avoidance of doubt". In the light of the Plessey judgment, it appears that rather than avoiding doubt, the continued existence of section 13(2) is now creating doubt and is doing so in a way which greatly widens the scope of immunity. Thus, Donovan's reasons for retaining it are no longer valid.

The repeal of section 13(2), as proposed in subsection (1) of the new clause, is the simplest way to clear up this doubt and specifically to prevent there being any possibility that factory occupations might be found lawful in future. As I have explained, in our view, this will not create any new liability for interference with business, since it is now well established that mere interference with business is not actionable in its own right.

It is worth mentioning that there is a particular difficulty about this case. It is most unlikely that a case of this nature would ever go all the way through the courts to be decided in the House of Lords. Therefore, although these were only, in effect, interim judgments—judgments in interim cases—they do represent a particular problem in Scotland. There must be a clear possibility that would-be investors in Scotland, seeing that that is the way that the law has been interpreted, would prefer not to put new premises at risk by positioning them in Scotland.

Until the Plessey decision it had never been thought that factory occupations were protected by the immunities provided by the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974. The amendment simply returns the law to where it was before the judgment. Before the Plessey case, trade unions did not believe that sit-ins were lawful. That is shown by the fact that the TUC conference in 1975 passed a motion calling for Changes in the law which would enable such occupations to be treated as accepted forms of industrial action with immunity from legal proceedings". The Labour Government did not respond to that motion with a change in the law. Therefore, I can only conclude that they saw the dangers of legalising sit-ins.

I wonder whether, just for a change, any right hon. and hon. Gentleman or the Opposition Benches will take the same view in Opposition as they did when in Government, and support the amendment.

Mr. Harold Walker

I suffer from one great disadvantage, in that the Secretary of State has a brief and I do not have one. He read it well, but I am not sure that he understood it. I do not say that in any disparaging way, and I shall resist the temptation to ask whether he understands subsection (2) of the amendment, which says In section 30 of the 1974 Act (interpretation), in the translation of 'tort' as respects Scotland, for the words from 'any' to 'reparation' there shall be substituted the word `delict'. The right hon. Gentleman wishes to tell me.

Mr. Tebbit

I am only too willing to help the right hon. Gentleman. I am not sure whether any of my Scottish legal hon. Friends were about to do so. In subsection (2) of the new clause, we are reinforcing the repeal of section 13(2) by amending the definition of "tort" in Scotland provided by section 30 of the 1974 Act. The present translation of "tort" into Scottish terminology is: Any wrongful or negligent act giving rise to liability in reparation. It is cumbersome and does not fit well into the 1974 Act. Moreover, it is not considered to be ideal since some wrongful acts which would be torts in England and Wales might, under some circumstances, not give rise to liability in reparation—that is the possibility of claiming damages—in Scotland. To use the simple translation of "tort" equals "delict" is, I am advised, a fairly straightforward way round the problem, and none of my advisers can give me any reason as to why that was not done originally.

Mr. Walker

I am no wiser about the meaning of the word "delict".

Mr. Tebbit

In essence, the word "delict" is the Scottish equivalent of "tort". If the right hon. Gentleman substitutes the word "tort" for the word "delict", I ant assured by the lawyers that he will not come to undue harm.

Mr. Walker

I shall accept the right hon. Gentleman's word for once. I accept his word when he says that the changes have the effect that he described. The TUC does not share that view. The Government are being consistent, because when, exceptionally, a court gives a decision in favour of a trade union, the Government cannot wait to get in with the Secretary of State's big hob-nailed boots to crush what is apparently a new-found right for trade unions in Scotland. They had to stamp it out immediately. That is consistent with the Secretary of State's attitude throughout the Bill.

The TUC apparently does not share the Secretary of State's view as to how innocuous the change will be. I said that I had not been in touch with the TUC. I depend on a. report that appeared in the Financial Times of 16 August, from which I shall row quote: A barely noticed amendment to the 1982 Employment Bill may seriously threaten the right to strike, according to a confidential paper being drawn up by TUC officials. The paper, which will eventually go before the Employment, Policy and Organisation Committee of the TUC, claims that scrapping of Section 13(2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974 will undermine a large part of the immunity strikers now enjoy from civil action". The report continues: TUC officials say that the scrapping of that section will return the law to the confusion that existed before the 1906 Trades Disputes Act. The paper says that any tort arising 'only from interference' with trade will now force the Lords to reinterpret two contradictory judgements made over 80 years ago. The Allen v. Flood case of 1897 —which the Secretary of State mentioned— was favourable to workers' rights to 'interfere with trade,' and the Quinn v. Leathern case —I seem to have lived with that case for 15 years of 1901 was unfavourable, it says. The report goes on to say that the TUC says At best we will be in a situation of great uncertainty following the removal of the amendment, and at worst it will directly challenge the right to strike". I do not know whether those views were expressed directly to the Secretary of State. He assured the House that it misunderstands and—to quote him They will have neither the intention nor the effect that the TUC attribute to them".

Mr. Tebbit

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. He puts the matter fairly in this respect. The TUC has not put that view firmly to me. Certainly it has not raised the matter with me as a major issue. On further consideration, the TUC may have reached the same conclusion, as my lawyers did, that the Allen v. Flood case—the one which, having gone to the House of Lords, clearly stood and has stood since 1898—still stands today. No difference will be made in that respect by the repeal.

Mr. Walker

I am grateful—and, no doubt, the TUC will be grateful—to the right hon. Gentleman for his reassurance. I am sure that the TUC will read our proceedings this evening and will be in touch either with me or with the Secretary of State, saying whether it is still worried on the subject.

We are now reaching the end of what for many of us has been a long and tiring road. I repeat that this change reflects one of the criticisms—to put it mildly—that we have made to the Government from the outset of our proceedings, that it illustrates their determination to crush underfoot the trade unions and the rights of trade unionists. Notwithstanding what I said about the reassurance that we have had from the Secretary of State, I shall invite my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide the House on this issue.

Mr. George Foulkes (South Ayrshire)

For those of us who happen, fortunately, to be Scots, to have sat through what we have just heard is a little like hearing two teetotallers talking about the various merits of Scotch whisky. They seem to know very little about the subject they are debating, and not much about its effects.

It is a great pity that we have not had, at least, the Solicitor-General for Scotland, if not the Secretary of State for Scotland, here to explain the effects of what the Government are doing on Scotland, because it has serious implications, not just for trade union activity in Scotland but for Scots law. For those of us who are concerned about the methods of this United Kingdom Parliament, where legislation is passed for the whole United Kingdom, affecting two legal systems—that in England and Wales, and that in Scotland—which are totally separate, it provides a good instance of the difficulties that arise.

9.45 pm

Where legislation is United Kingdom legislation and the legal system is totally different in many ways, serious anomalies arise. What the Government are putting forward does not just have serious and worrying implications in Scotland for the trade unions, which have been noticeably freer, more active and, if Conservative Members will excuse the word, more militant, but has some serious implications for Scots law.

The Secretary of State talked about the law of trespass in Scotland. As I understand trespass in Scotland, with no legal training, it has been more liberal and totally different from that in England. The Secretary of State and the Government are suggesting something that has serious implications for the law of trespass in Scotland. If that is used as a precedent and extended to other areas tremendous difficulties will be created.

It is a great pity that there are no Scots lawyers present. There are some English lawyers, but no Scots ones. I understand that in England when one goes on to other people's property it is clear and unequivocal that one can be guilty of an offence described as trespass.

Mr. Percy Grieve (Solihull)

Does the hon. Gentleman understand that in England trespass is not a criminal offence? Will he tell the House what would happen to Mr. Fagan if he went to Holyrood House instead of Buckingham Palace?

Mr. Foulkes

The hon. and learned Gentleman, who is a distinguished English lawyer, has put me right on English law. It is important to have someone here to explain the position in Scots law. My understanding is that the amendment will have serious implications for Scots law.

It is not my responsibility to explain the implications. It is the Government's responsibility. However, the truth is that the Government have been caught with their trousers down.

Mr. A. W. Stallard (St. Pancras, North)

That legislation comes next.

Mr. Foulkes

I shall ignore my hon. Friend, who left Scotland—

Mr. John Maxton (Glasgow, Cathcart)

Before the Union of Parliaments.

Mr. Foulkes

I think that it was a little after that.

The workers in Plessey took an important action because they felt strongly. They found that they were in the right and that Scots law was on their side. They found that Scots law, which has been traditionally on the side of the worker, is still on the side of the worker. It is regrettable that on this occasion a change should be made by an English majority of Conservative Members and introduced by an English Secretary of State. It is alien to what the people of Scotland want and alien to the wishes of the majority of the elected representatives of Scotland. If we had a Scottish Assembly, as we should, the amendment would not have been introduced today.

Mr. Bill Walker

I have listened to the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Foulkes) on many occasions. It is unfortunate that he should come in at the fag-end of this long debate and, although he has no real knowledge of the subject, try to peddle his favourite comment about the Scottish Assembly.

One reason why we have such provisions in United Kingdom legislation is to ensure that employers and employees are treated equally throughout the country. If equal treatment were not provided, there would be enormous problems for branches of trade unions and for branches of companies that must operate under different conditions. Enormous problems would be caused both for organised labour, whether trade unions or other forms, and management. Therefore, in passing legislation, we must ensure that Scotland is treated even-handedly.

When the hon. Member for South Ayrshire intervenes in such debates, he should remember that some hon. Members on both sides of the House have been through all the stages of the Bill and have put in many hours. They find it offensive when someone rises simply to peddle his favourite ware.

Mr. Foulkes

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is not the purpose of this stage of the Bill expressly to allow those who were not members of the Committee to take part in the debate?

Mr. Deputy Speaker

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Walker

I leave the House to judge whether the hon. Member for South Ayrshire has contributed to meaningful and sensible legislation. When we divide on matters of policy, I hope that we do not divide on the fact that whatever Government are in power they will expect United Kingdom legislation to apply to Scotland, England and Wales. Sometimes legislation must differ, for example in Northern Ireland, with its unique problems.

One of the marvellous things about our democratic assembly is that we make allowances. The proposed legislation affects both sides of the employment ence—management and organised labour. It is important that both the workers and management at the Plessey factory in Scotland should be treated uniformly. Such even-handedness is vital if our industrial relations are not to be more chaotic than they have been in the past. I see the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) shaking his head.

I recognise that the hon. Member for South Ayrshire has his own views. He also believes that the Scottish trade unions—I hope that I quote the hon. Gentleman accurately—have been more militant than the trade unions south of the border. If one has listened to the long debates on this subject, one can understand why many jobs have been lost in so many factories in Scotland. The militancy that has been mentioned is a major reason for the loss of jobs and competitiveness. The hon. Gentleman wishes to divide management and trade unions. This amendment is essential in order that all who work in industrial relations understand the rules of the game.

Mr. Maxton

It had not been my intention to speak until the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Walker) made such an appalling statement. As a Scot who recognises that there is still a need for separate Scottish legislation to be passed in the House, he should realise that he was saying essentially that there should be no separate Scottish legal system. I hope that he will go to the polls in Scotland saying that.

Mr. Walker

I did not say that.

Mr. Maxton

The hon. Gentleman says that he did not say that. He says that industry should be treated equally. However, Scotland has different contract and company law. Will the hon. Gentleman propose amendments to future legislation that will bring Scottish legislation into line with English law? He said that separate Scottish law must go completely.

The Secretary of State said that if this provision remains in the Bill Scotland will not attract industry. I listened to many radio programmes about a fortnight ago, when his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland with responsibility for industry made great claims about how he had managed to attract the Wang Corporation to Scotland against competition from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. If that is so, why does he believe that it will be different for another company that wishes to invest in Scotland? We must have protection for Scottish trade unions.

Mr. Tebbit

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) for putting his point briefly. The answer is that we could attract those companies to Scot and because we made it plain that we would bring in this amendment to correct Scottish law. [Interruption.] It was not a barrier to investment, but it would have been had we left the law in such an uncertain state.

The Scottish courts did not declare that the trespass was lawful. They declared that it was unlawful, but said that section 13(2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974 might provide immunity and that, therefore, they would not grant an interim interdict. The courts left open the question and the law remained uncertain. It would be extremely unlikely that, in the foreseeable future, the process of the law would be taken to the House of Lords in order to remove the uncertainty.

I assure the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Foulkes), who is worried about Scottish law, that the law on trespass there is different from English law, but until the Plessey judgment it did not prevent Scottish employers from obtaining interdicts against sit-ins. The new clause does not change Scottish trespass law, but removes the doubt and puts the minds of those concerned at rest.

It is not a trampling underfoot of trade union rights. It is the establishment of certainty that employers will not be subject to unlawful sit-ins in Scotland which have been given immunity by that reading of section 13(2) of the 1974 Act.

Mr. Foulkes

Who does the Minister believe will have their minds put at rest by the legislation?

Mr. Tebbit

Those who invest in and bring jobs to Scotland will have their minds put at rest by the clarification of the law that arises from the repeal of section 13(2).

I shall say nothing more about the contents of the Bill, but I thank all hon. Members who have participated in our debates, although it was difficult to believe always that they showed total goodwill towards the Bill. I am grateful that many of the debates were constructive. I am pleased that the Bill will soon receive Royal Assent and bring great protection to working people in industry around Britain.

Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 308, Noes 227.

Division No. 323] [10.00 pm
Adley, Robert Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne)
Alexander, Richard Atkins, Robert(Preston N)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E)
Alton, David Baker, Kenneth(St.M'bone)
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)
Ancram, Michael Banks, Robert
Aspinwall, Jack Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Beith, A. J. Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Bendall, Vivian Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)
Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) Garel-Jones, Tristan
Benyon, Thomas (A'don) Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Ginsburg, David
Best, Keith Glyn, Dr Alan
Bevan, David Gilroy Goodhart, Sir Philip
Biffen, Rt Hon John Goodhew, Sir Victor
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Goodlad, Alastair
Blackburn, John Gorst, John
Blaker, Peter Gow, Ian
Body, Richard Gower, Sir Raymond
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)
Boscawen, Hon Robert Gray, Hamish
Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) Grieve, Percy
Bowden, Andrew Griffiths, E.(B'y St. Edm'ds)
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)
Braine, Sir Bernard Grimond, Rt Hon J.
Brinton, Tim Grist, Ian
Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon Grylls, Michael
Brooke, Hon Peter Gummer, John Selwyn
Brotherton, Michael Hamilton, Hon A.
Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S) Hannam, John
Browne, John (Winchester) Haselhurst, Alan
Bruce-Gardyne, John Hastings, Stephen
Bryan, Sir Paul Hawkins, Sir Paul
Buck, Antony Hawksley, Warren
Budgen, Nick Hayhoe, Barney
Bulmer, Esmond Henderson, Barry
Burden, Sir Frederick Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Butcher, John Hicks, Robert
Carlisle, John (Luton West) Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Hill, James
Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n ) Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Holland, Philip (Carlton)
Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul Hooson, Tom
Chapman, Sydney Hordern, Peter
Churchill, W. S. Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'Idf'd)
Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) Hunt, David (Wirral)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Clegg, Sir Walter Irvine, Bryant Godman
Cockeram, Eric Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
Colvin, Michael Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Cope, John Jessel, Toby
Corrie, John Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Costain, Sir Albert Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Cranborne, Viscount Kaberry, Sir Donald
Crouch, David Kershaw, Sir Anthony
Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Kimball, Sir Marcus
Dickens, Geoffrey King, Rt Hon Tom
Dorrell, Stephen Kitson, Sir Timothy
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. Knight, Mrs Jill
Dover, Denshore Knox, David
du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Lamont, Norman
Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Lang, Ian
Durant, Tony Latham, Michael
Dykes, Hugh Lawrence, Ivan
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) Lee, John
Eggar, Tim Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Elliott, Sir William Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Emery, Sir Peter Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Eyre, Reginald Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo)
Fairbairn, Nicholas Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Fairgrieve, Sir Russell Loveridge, John
Faith, Mrs Sheila Luce, Richard
Farr, John Lyell, Nicholas
Fell, Sir Anthony Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)
Fenner, Mrs Peggy McCrindle, Robert
Finsberg, Geoffrey Macfarlane, Neil
Fisher, Sir Nigel MacGregor, John
Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) MacKay, John (Argyll)
Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles Macmillan, Rt Hon M.
Forman, Nigel McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)
Fox, Marcus McNally, Thomas
Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh McQuarrie, Albert
Fry, Peter Magee, Bryan
Major, John Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Marland, Paul Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Marlow, Antony Shelton, William (Streatham)
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Mates, Michael Shepherd, Richard
Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus Shersby, Michael
Mawby, Ray Silvester, Fred
Mawhinney, Dr Brian Sims, Roger
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Skeet, T. H. H.
Mayhew, Patrick Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Mellor, David Smith, Dudley
Meyer, Sir Anthony Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Mills, Iain (Meriden) Speed, Keith
Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) Speller, Tony
Miscampbell, Norman Spence, John
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton ltchen) Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)
Moate, Roger Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Monro, Sir Hector Squire, Robin
Montgomery, Fergus Stainton, Keith
Moore, John Stanbrook, Ivor
Morgan, Geraint Stanley, John
Morris, M. (N'hampton S) Steen, Anthony
Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) Stevens, Martin
Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire)
Mudd, David Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Murphy, Christopher Stokes, John
Myles, David Stradling Thomas, J.
Neale, Gerrard Tapsell, Peter
Needham, Richard Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Nelson, Anthony Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Neubert, Michael Temple-Morris, Peter
Onslow, Cranley Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.
Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S. Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Page, John (Harrow, West) Thompson, Donald
Page, Richard (SW Herts) Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil Thornton, Malcolm
Parris, Matthew Townend, John (Bridlington)
Patten, Christopher (Bath) Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)
Patten, John (Oxford) Trippier, David
Pattie, Geoffrey van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Pawsey, James Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Penhaligon, David Viggers, Peter
Percival, Sir Ian Waddington, David
Peyton, Rt Hon John Wakeham, John
Pink, R. Bonner Waldegrave, Hon William
Pollock, Alexander Walker, B. (Perth )
Porter, Barry Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.
Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) Waller, Gary
Prior, Rt Hon James Walters, Dennis
Proctor, K. Harvey Ward, John
Raison, Rt Hon Timothy Warren, Kenneth
Rathbone, Tim Watson, John
Rees-Davies, W. R. Wellbeloved, James
Renton, Tim Wells, Bowen
Rhodes James, Robert Wells, John (Maidstone)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Wheeler, John
Ridley, Hon Nicholas Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Ridsdale, Sir Julian Whitney, Raymond
Rifkind, Malcolm Wickenden, Keith
Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey Wiggin, Jerry
Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) Williams, D.(Montgomery)
Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Williams,Rt Hon Mrs (Crosby)
Roper, John Winterton, Nicholas
Rossi, Hugh Wolfson, Mark
Rost, Peter Young, Sir George (Acton)
Royle, Sir Anthony
Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R. Tellers for the Ayes:
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Mr. Anthony Berry and
Sandelson, Neville Mr. Carol Mather.
Abse, Leo Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Adams, Allen Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)
Allaun, Frank Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Anderson, Donald Bennett, Andrew(St'kp't N)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Bidwell, Sydney
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Booth, Rt Hon AlBert
Ashton, Joe Boothroyd, Miss Betty
Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) Bottomley, Rt Hon A.(M'b'ro)
Bagier, Gordon A.T. Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Hugh D. (Proven) Homewood, William
Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) Hooley, Frank
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) Howell, Rt Hon D.
Buchan, Norman Hoyle, Douglas
Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) Huckfield, Les
Campbell, Ian Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Campbell-Savours, Dale Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Canavan, Dennis Hughes, Roy (Newport) Janner,
Cant, R. B. Hon Greville
Carmichael, Neil Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Carter-Jones, Lewis John, Brynmor
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Johnson, James (Hull West)
Clarke,Thomas(C'b'dge, A'rie) Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)
Cohen, Stanley Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Coleman, Donald Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Conlan, Bernard Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Cook, Robin F. Lambie, David
Cowans, Harry Lamond, James
Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g) Leighton, Ronald
Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) Lestor, Miss Joan
Crowther, Stan Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)
Cryer, Bob Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Cunliffe, Lawrence Litherland, Robert
Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Dalyell, Tam Lyon, Alexander (York)
Davidson, Arthur McCartney, Hugh
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'Ili) McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) McGuire, Michael (Ince)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Deakins, Eric McKelvey, William
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
Dewar, Donald McMahon, Andrew
Dixon, Donald McNamara, Kevin
Dobson, Frank McTaggart, Robert
Dormand, Jack Marks, Kenneth
Douglas, Dick Marshall, D(G'gow S'ton)
Dubs, Alfred Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)
Duffy, A. E. P. Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Dunnett, Jack Martin, M(G'gow S'burn)
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Eadie, Alex Maxton, John
Eastham, Ken Maynard, Miss Joan
Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E) Meacher, Michael
Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) Mikardo, Ian
English, Michael Milian, Rt Hon Bruce
Ennals, Rt Hon David Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Evans, loan (Aberdare) Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Evans, John (Newton) Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)
Ewing, Harry Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Faulds, Andrew Morton, George
Field, Frank Moyle, Rt Hon Roland
Fitch, Alan Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick
Fitt, Gerard Newens, Stanley
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Ford, Ben O'Neill, Martin
Forrester, John Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Foulkes, George Palmer, Arthur
Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd) Park, George
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Parker, John
Garrett, John (Norwich S) Parry, Robert
George, Bruce Pavitt, Laurie
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Pendry, Tom
Golding, John Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Gourley, Harry Prescott, John
Graham, Ted Race, Reg
Grant, George (Morpeth) Radice, Giles
Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)
Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) Richardson, Jo
Hardy, Peter Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Robertson, George
Haynes, Frank Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)
Healey, Rt Hon Denis Rooker, J. W.
Heffer, Eric S. Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) Rowlands, Ted
Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'11) Ryman, John
Home Robertson, John Sever, John
Sheerman, Barry Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Sheldon, Rt Hon R. Wardell, Gareth
Shore, Rt Hon Peter Wainwright, E.(Dearne V)
Short, Mrs Renée Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster)
Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) Watkins, David
Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) Weetch, Ken
Skinner, Dennis Welsh, Michael
Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) White, Frank R.
Snape, Peter White, J. (G'gow Pollok)
Soley, Clive Whitehead, Phillip
Spearing, Nigel Whitlock, William
Spriggs, Leslie Wigley, Dafydd
Stallard, A. W. Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles) Williams, Rt Hon A.(S sea W)
Stoddart, David Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
Stott, Roger Wilson, Rt Hon Sir H.(H'ton)
Strang, Gavin Wilson, William (C'try SE)
Straw, Jack Winnick, David
Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley Woodall, Alec
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) Woolmer, Kenneth
Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) Wright, Sheila
Thomas, Dr R.(Carmarthen) Young, David (Bolton E)
Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Tilley, John Tellers for the Noes:
Tinn, James Mr. Derek Foster and
Torney, Tom Mr. Austin Mitchell.
Urwin, Rt Hon Tom

Question accordingly agreed to.

It being after Ten o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order this day, to put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.

Question put :—

The House divided: Ayes 305, Noes 227.

Division No. 324] [10.14 pm
Adley, Robert Budgen, Nick
Alexander, Richard Bulmer, Esmond
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Burden, Sir Frederick
Alton, David Butcher, John
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Carlisle, John (Luton West)
Ancram, Michael Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Aspinwall, Jack Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n )
Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne) Chalker, Mrs. Lynda
Atkins, Robert(Preston N) Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul
Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) Chapman, Sydney
Baker, Kenneth(St.M'bone) Churchill, W. S.
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n)
Banks, Robert Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Beith, A. J. Clegg, Sir Walter
Bendall, Vivian Cockeram, Eric
Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) Colvin, Michael
Benyon, Thomas (A'don) Cope, John
Benyon, W.(Buckingham) Corrie, John
Best, Keith Costain, Sir Albert
Bevan, David Gilroy Cranborne, Viscount
Biffen, Rt Hon John Crouch, David
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Cunningham, G. (Islington S)
Blackburn, John Dickens, Geoffrey
Blaker, Peter Dorrell, Stephen
Body, Richard Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.
Boscawen, Hon Robert Dover, Denshore
Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Bowden, Andrew Dunn, Robert(Dartford)
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Durant, Tony
Braine, Sir Bernard Dykes, Hugh
Brinton, Tim Eden, Rt Hon Sir John
Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)
Brooke, Hon Peter Eggar, Tim
Brotherton, Michael Elliott, Sir William
Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) Emery, Sir Peter
Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S) Eyre, Reginald
Browne, John (Winchester) Fairbairn, Nicholas
Bruce-Gardyne, John Fairgrieve, Sir Russell
Bryan, Sir Paul Faith, Mrs Sheila
Buck, Antony Farr, John
Fell, Sir Anthony McCrindle, Robert
Fenner, Mrs Peggy Macfarlane, Neil
Finsberg, Geoffrey MacGregor, John
Fisher, Sir Nigel MacKay, John (Argyll)
Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) Macmillan, Rt Hon M.
Forman, Nigel McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)
Fox, Marcus McNally, Thomas
Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh McQuarrie, Albert
Fry, Peter Magee, Bryan
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Major, John
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Marland, Paul
Garel-Jones, Tristan Marlow, Antony
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Ginsburg, David Mates, Michael
Glyn, Dr Alan Mawby, Ray
Goodhart, Sir Philip Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Goodhew, Sir Victor Maxwell-Hyslop,
Goodlad, Alastair Robin Mayhew, Patrick
Gorst, John Mellor, David
Gow, Ian Meyer, Sir Anthony
Gower, Sir Raymond Mills, Iain (Meriden)
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)
Gray, Hamish Miscampbell, Norman
Grieve, Percy Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Griffiths, E.(B'y St. Edm'ds) Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen)
Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) Moate, Roger
Grimond, Rt Hon J. Monro, Sir Hector
Grist, Ian Montgomery, Fergus
Grylls, Michael Moore, John
Gummer, John Selwyn Morgan, Geraint
Hamilton, Hon A. Morris, M. (N'hampton S)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)
Hannam, John Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)
Haselhurst, Alan Mudd, David
Hastings, Stephen Murphy, Christopher
Hawkins, Sir Paul Myles, David
Hawksley, Warren Neale, Gerrard
Hayhoe, Barney Needham, Richard
Henderson, Barry Nelson, Anthony
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Neubert, Michael
Hicks, Robert Newton, Tony
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Onslow, Cranley
Hill, James Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) Page, John (Harrow, West)
Holland, Philip (Carlton) Page, Richard (SW Herts)
Hooson, Tom Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil
Hordern, Peter Parris, Matthew
Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd) Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) Patten, John (Oxford)
Hunt, David (Wirral) Pattie, Geoffrey
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Pawsey, James
Irvine, Bryant Godman Penhaligon, David
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Percival, Sir Ian
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Peyton, Rt Hon John
Jessel, Toby Pink, R. Bonner
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey Pollock, Alexander
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Porter, Barry
Kaberry, Sir Donald Price, Sir David (Eastleigh)
Kershaw, Sir Anthony Prior, Rt Hon James
Kimball, Sir Marcus Proctor, K. Harvey
King, Rt Hon Tom Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Kitson, Sir Timothy Rathbone, Tim
Knight, Mrs Jill Rees-Davies, W. R.
Knox, David Renton, Tim
Lamont, Norman Rhodes James, Robert
Lang, Ian Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Latham, Michael Ridley, Hon Nicholas
Lawrence, Ivan Rifkind, Malcolm
Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Lee, John Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Lester, Jim (Beeston) Roper, John
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Rossi, Hugh
Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo) Rost, Peter
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Royle, Sir Anthony
Loveridge, John Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R.
Luce, Richard Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Lyell, Nicholas Sandelson, Neville
Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W) Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') Thornton, Malcolm
Shelton, William (Streatham) Townend, John (Bridlington)
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)
Shepherd, Richard Trippier, David
Shersby, Michael van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Silvester, Fred Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Sims, Roger Viggers, Peter
Skeet, T. H. H. Waddington, David
Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) Wakeham, John
Smith, Dudley Waldegrave, Hon William
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Walker, B. (Perth )
Speed, Keith Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.
Speller, Tony Waller, Gary
Spence, John Ward, John
Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) Warren, Kenneth
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Watson, John
Squire, Robin Wellbeloved, James
Stainton, Keith Wells, Bowen
Stanbrook, Ivor Wells, John (Maidstone)
Stanley, John Wheeler, John
Steen, Anthony Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Stevens, Martin Whitney, Raymond
Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire) Wickenden, Keith
Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) Wiggin, Jerry
Stokes, John Williams, D.(Montgomery)
Stradling Thomas, J. Williams,Rt Hon Mrs (Crosby)
Tapsell, Peter Winterton, Nicholas
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) Wolfson, Mark
Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman Young, Sir George (Acton)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. Tellers for the Ayes:
Thomas, Rt Hon Peter Mr. Anthony Berry and
Thompson, Donald Mr. Carol Mather.
Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Abse, Leo Dalyell, Tam
Adams, Allen Davidson, Arthur
Allaun, Frank Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'Ili)
Anderson, Donald Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Deakins, Eric
Ashton, Joe Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)
Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) Dewar, Donald
Bagier, Gordon A.T. Dixon, Donald
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Dobson, Frank
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) Dormand, Jack
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Douglas, Dick
Bennett, Andrew(St'kp't N) Dubs, Alfred
Bidwell, Sydney Duffy, A. E. P.
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Dunnett, Jack
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.
Bottomley, Rt Hon A.(M'b'ro) Eadie, Alex
Bray, Dr Jeremy Eastham, Ken
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E)
Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're)
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) English, Michael
Buchan, Norman Ennals, Rt Hon David
Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) Evans, loan (Aberdare)
Campbell, Ian Evans, John (Newton)
Campbell-Savours, Dale Ewing, Harry
Canavan, Dennis Faulds, Andrew
Cant, R. B. Field, Frank
Carmichael, Neil Fitch, Alan
Carter-Jones, Lewis Fitt, Gerard
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Clarke,Thomas(C'b'dge, A'rie) Ford, Ben
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) Forrester, John
Cohen, Stanley Foster, Derek
Coleman, Donald Foulkes, George
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)
Conlan, Bernard Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Cook, Robin F. Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Cowans, Harry George, Bruce
Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g) Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) Golding, John
Crowther, Stan Gourley, Harry
Cryer, Bob Graham, Ted
Cunliffe, Lawrence Grant, George (Morpeth)
Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Hardy, Peter McGuire, Michael (Ince)
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith McKelvey, William
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
Haynes, Frank McMahon, Andrew
Healey, Rt Hon Denis McNamara, Kevin
Heffer, Eric S. McTaggart, Robert
Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) Marks, Kenneth
Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll) Marshall, D(G'gow S'ton)
Home Robertson, John Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Homewood, William Martin, M(G'gow S'burn)
Hooley, Frank Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Howell, Rt Hon D. Maxton, John
Hoyle, Douglas Maynard, Miss Joan
Huckfield, Les Meacher, Michael
Hughes, Mark (Durham) Mikardo, Ian
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Janner, Hon Greville Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)
Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
John, Brynmor Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)
Johnson, James (Hull West) Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Morton, George
Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda) Moyle, Rt Hon Roland
Jones, Barry (East Flint) Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Newens, Stanley
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Kilroy-Silk, Robert O'Neill, Martin
Lambie, David Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Lamond, James Palmer, Arthur
Leighton, Ronald Park, George
Lestor, Miss Joan Parker, John
Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) Parry, Robert
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Pavitt, Laurie
Litherland, Robert Pendry, Tom
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Lyon, Alexander (York) Prescott, John
Race, Reg Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Radice, Giles Thomas, Dr R.(Carmarthen)
Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S) Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Richardson, Jo Tilley, John
Roberts, Allan (Bootle) Tinn, James
Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) Torney, Tom
Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Urwin, Rt Hon Tom
Robertson, George Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) Wardell, Gareth
Rooker, J. W. Wainwright, E.(Dearne V)
Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster)
Rowlands, Ted Watkins, David
Ryman, John Weetch, Ken
Sever, John Welsh, Michael
Sheerman, Barry White, Frank R.
Sheldon, Rt Hon R. White, J. (G'gow Pollok)
Shore, Rt Hon Peter Whitehead, Phillip
Short, Mrs Renée Whitlock, William
Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) Wigley, Dafydd
Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Skinner, Dennis Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W)
Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
Snape, Peter Wilson, Rt Hon Sir H.(H'ton)
Soley, Clive Wilson, William (C'try SE)
Spearing, Nigel Winnick, David
Spriggs, Leslie Woodall, Alec
Stallard, A. W. Woolmer, Kenneth
Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles) Wright, Sheila
Stoddart, David Young, David (Bolton E)
Stott, Roger
Strang, Gavin Tellers for the Noes:
Straw, Jack Mr. Hugh McCartney and
Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley Mr. Edmund Marshall.
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Lords amendments nos.24 to 41 agreed to.