HC Deb 27 May 1982 vol 24 cc1042-4
Mr. Canavan

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent complaints there have been about deaths and injuries caused by plastic bullets; and whether any action has been taken in consequence.

Mr. Prior

I am well aware of the concern about baton rounds. I do not measure its seriousness by the number of complaints about them. I deeply regret the possibility that their use has resulted in deaths and injuries. But I have a responsibility to enable the security forces to protect themselves when under violent attack. There is no easy alternative: some critics seem not to understand the ferocity of the attacks upon the security forces or the consequences if they fail to maintain order. The law rightly requires the security forces to use no more force than is strictly necessary, and I am in close touch with their commanders about their continuing review of operational policy.

Mr. Canavan

Since, over the past decade, 14 people, seven of them children under the age of 15, have been killed by plastic or rubber bullets, and, in one month of last year alone, 110 people required hospital treatment for plastic bullet injuries, is it not time that the Government imposed a ban on the use of these lethal bullets, instead of continuing and even escalating their use in Northern Ireland and issuing 3,000 of them for use by British police forces, as recently happened?

Mr. Prior

There is no escalation in the use of plastic bullets in Northern Ireland. I shall give the hon. Gentleman two statistics. When the violence was at its height last year, between January and August, the number of plastic bullets fired was 29,594. In the nine months since then, the number fired has been 225. That, I think, represents a markedly changed attitude and atmosphere. Of course, I want to build on that, but I am not prepared to leave the security forces unprotected.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell

Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that the European Assembly has no standing, status or right whatsoever to pass resolutions concerning the internal policing and affairs of any of its member States, and that that action is deeply resented in the United Kingdom?

Mr. Prior

I confirm what the right hon. Gentleman says.

Mr. Kilfedder

Is it not correct that on many occasions young people under the age of 15 have been used by the IRA to engage in wicked deeds, including the recent occasion to which the right hon. Gentleman referred—the petrol bombing of an Army vehicle, which resulted in the death of a young, courageous, decent soldier?

Mr. Prior

There are two problems of violence. One involves marauding gangs of youths with petrol bombs, stones, and so on. The other involves the vicious murders perpetrated with, for example, the gun. The two need different treatment. One of the problems is that sometimes the marauding gangs of youths, who start by throwing stones and petrol bombs, are merely a decoy to encourage the murderers with their rifles and other guns to get at our soldiers when they react. There is an interface between the two. In so far as they can be separated, we need to deal with them separately. I have had long talks with the security chiefs, who understand the position fully, and they have my full support in the action that they are taking.

Mr. James A. Dunn

Is the Secretary of State aware that his answers are supported by me and by my right hon. and hon. Friends? However, does he agree that the time has probably come for him and the Secretary of State for Defence to reappraise the need to use plastic bullets in certain circumstances, particularly when children are in the vicinity? Does he agree, arising from that review, that if more regular constraints were imposed, they would avoid the tragic deaths, because not all children throw petrol bombs?

Mr. Prior

I assure the hon. Member and the House that this matter is under constant reappraisal, as, of course, are other matters of not control. I want to make that absolutely clear. No one recognises better than the security chiefs the repercussions of the tragic death of a young boy, as happened a little while ago. That adds to the problems of security generally and is well understood and well realised. We cannot afford to leave our security forces unprotected by what they consider to be the only effective weapon so far available. I assure the House that this is a matter of deep concern to the security chiefs, the people of Northern Ireland, and, of course, myself. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we keep the matter under close review.

Rev. Ian Paisley

I completely agree with the Secretary of State about the jurisdiction of the European Assembly, but does he not agree that the fact that the Assembly passed the resolution in question was a good propaganda exercise for the Irish Republican Army? Does he accept that the Government's representative at the European Assembly failed to give the Members of that Parliament one piece of evidence to justify the use of plastic bullets in the circumstances in which they are used in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Prior

I shall have to check on the latter point. I am under the impression that we were asked for details before the debate took place and that we provided them, certainly to those Members of the European Parliament with Conservative affiliations. However, I shall check that. I am certain that the evidence was made available.

Mr. Concannon

We are desperately doing our best to control and break up the numerous riots in Northern Ireland. There were riots on one occasion in Liverpool. From the evidence that is available to me, it seems clear that plastic bullets are now being used beyond the strict rules that govern their use. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that unless something is done to tighten political control of those weapons there is a danger of further alienating the people whom we are seeking to protect?

Mr. Prior

I do not believe that we can have political control in the accepted sense. Control must be left to the local commander. At the same time, it is obvious that that is a matter of extreme political importance. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am constantly considering that matter and have been considering it in the last week.