Argentina (Sporting Contacts) (Hansard, 27 May 1982)

§ Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, West)

I am most grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing this debate to take place, and to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland for giving the House the chance, shortly after the witching hour, of hearing an important and topical subject that has been aired before in this place and outside. I am especially grateful to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for being in his place this evening and for his great interest and foresight in the subject that I am about to raise. It is his maiden speech upon it in an Adjournment debate and I wish him the best of fortune in his recent appointment.

British participation in the World Cup has been aired in this place and outside since the Falkland Islands crisis began many miles from this place and since the emergency debate that took place on 3 April, when the subject was raised, perhaps somewhat unwittingly, by my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Sir N. Fisher). My hon. Friend said that one sanction that could be used against Argentina in a terrible and unfortunate crisis was that of sport. He suggested that that sanction could be used in the forthcoming World Cup. I feel it right that we should debate the issue and the Government's attitude to Argentine and British participation in a great sporting contest.

Since the crisis began there has been an enormous amount of media reaction and speculation on whether the British teams of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland should take part. I and many of my hon. Friends have been heartened by the attitude adopted by the Government and expressed by my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. They have not wavered in their opinion that the British teams should go to Spain and take part in a wonderful competition. No doubt has been expressed about that. I am particularly pleased about that, because the House will know that since I entered this place I have been trying to divorce the attitude of Governments from sport and trying to keep politics away from sporting participation.

The Government seem to have adopted an interesting change of policy since the Moscow Olympics. They are now allowing sporting associations to make their own decisions. Many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) and the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan), have asked several questions on this issue and the Government have not wavered from their decision to allow the teams to go, and, perhaps more importantly, not to put any pressure upon the respective football associations. I express the hope and desire that my hon. Friend will express no change of heart on the part of the Government. He will realise, like many others, that sporting boycotts rarely achieve what they set out to do. If history is to be taken note of, it is a fact that sporting boycotts in the past have probably harmed those who have tried to inflict them upon others rather than those for whom they have been intended. I speak in passing about South-Africa, where sporting boycotts have had little effect on the Government's attitude.

1157 Since the Falkland controversy arose I have sought the opinions of others, especially those of Service men, who are supporting our cause as members of the task force, which is many miles from this place. There is no doubt that those who are serving us so gloriously and courageously in the South Atlantic are very much in favour of British participation in the competition. They realise, as do others, that it is a glorious chance to exhibit British patriotism and skill on the sporting field and to show some international co-operation, which we have lacked in the political arena but which sport has always provided.

To those who say that some members of our task force might feel that while they are fighting for their country it is not right that we should send sportsmen out to fight on the sporting field, I would say that their anxiety is not shared by those in the task force. The messages that many hon. Members receive through their constituents is that the men and women fighting on our behalf are as anxious as we are to have information about the sporting prowess of our nationals. They have especially requested video films of the end of the football season and have shown a great interest in what is going on in Britain. They will be very disappointed if we pull out of the World Cup.

Let us never forget that, in this argument, we are the innocents. We are fighting against an aggressor who used military force to take over a part of British sovereign territory, and many people would be very perplexed if it were believed to be appropriate to put pressure on the football associations to withdraw. We have nothing to be ashamed of in this dispute and our footballers will have nothing to be ashamed of if and when they go to Spain.

Another understandable fear that has been expressed is about the way that our fans might behave in Spain, especially if hostilities continue. I shall not dwell on that subject because I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the pamphlet that he produced and his real attempts to lessen the effect of spectator behaviour in the competition. I understand his fears, which are justified because of the way that British fans have behaved during the past few years. I also acknowledge the anxiety and fear that, if Argentina was competing alongside British teams and if British teams should play against Argentina, some trouble would occur on the terraces. Those fears are fully justified, but I do not believe that there is any justification for a British team to withdraw from the competition because it may happen.

We must inevitably talk about a hypothetical position, so we must begin to tread on dangerous ground. It is to be hoped that Scotland will get through to the second round, when it would be the first of the home countries to meet Argentina. If hostilities are still in progress no hon. Member or any British person could envisage a Scottish, English or Northern Irish team running on to the same field as an Argentine team. We hope desperately that the position will change before then. I pay tribute to the English Football Association and especially to its secretary, Ted Croker, who seems to be equal to the decision that he may have to take on the morning of that game. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) also believe that it is unthinkable that British teams should run on to the same field as an Argentine team if hostilities are continuing.

In that case I understand that it would be up to FIFA to make its own decision. Perhaps that might not be a bad thing. If there is a disappointment, it is that our world 1158 partners in soccer and our European partners have not come out in full support of our own ideas, and against Argentina.

I fully appreciate their understandable efforts to divorce politics from sport. Nobody has tried as hard as I have to keep politics away from sport. But it should be recorded that we are somewhat disappointed that our European partners have seen fit to make no comment on this situation. Should such a situation arise, FIFA would be under great pressure. My personal view—I do not expect the Minister to agree—is that the onus would be on FIFA to expel the aggressor and to allow the competition to go ahead.

There will be absolutely nothing to be gained by withdrawal of the British teams now, or for any pressure to be applied by the British Government on the teams to withdraw. The Argentines would take no notice whatever of any move that we make and we would have no advantage in the competition or in the fight against Argentina in the Falkland Islands. A military junta consisting of three men in a closed room is hardly likely to take notice of a democratic decision taken by the electorate of this country. Such a decision would, I suppose, in some people's eyes be a patriotic gesture, but it would be ignored by Argentina and in no way would it assist our efforts to remove the aggressor from the islands.

Sport is a great healer. It cuts across all politics and many international situations. It is a prowess that can be achieved by individuals and by teams in a spirit that is prevalent, and notable, for us in this country and all those in the free world. I believe that the World Cup will give the opportunity to millions to see young men competing against each other in the highest spirit of the game. Many of those millions will have no concern about what they might consider as being a small squabble between two warring nations. They might be sympathetic to the British dilemma, but that sympathy would not go far even if we were to withdraw from the competition.

We owe it to the men of the task force and to the men of the nation to allow the players to go to Spain unimpeded to compete in the competition and to win as many games as they can. I trust that one of them—I hope that it is the English team, and I make no apology for saying that—will return with a trophy for the sideboard to show that English patriotism, skill and sportsmanship mean much in the world.

I hope that my hon. Friend will reinforce the view that he has stated, that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has stated, and that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland stated only yesterday, that we shall allow the British teams to compete and, I hope, win.

§ The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Macfarlane)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West (Mr. Carlisle) for giving me the opportunity to end recent press speculation and to place clearly on the record, once again, the Government's views on our participation in the World Cup.

I remind the House that, on 21 April, in answer to a question from the hon. Member for West Stirlingshiire (Mr. Canavan) I said: There is no question of a boycott. In answer to further questions I added that 1159 as matters now stand, we have no objection to British teams taking part in international competitions where Argentina may also be represented."—[Official Report, 21 April 1982; Vol. 22, c. 258–9.] I added that the position would be kept under constant review in the light of changing circumstances.

On 19 May, in answer to a question from the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), I repeated the Government's view that no objection was seen to participation in the World Cup finals. I also made it clear on that occasion to my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West that I had put no pressure on the three British football associations to withdraw.

It is the Government's policy to discourage all sporting contact with Argentina, either here or in that country at representative, club or individual level. Outside these two countries we see no objection to British teams or individuals competing in any international events where Argentina may be represented. This policy applies to all sporting events.

There are a number of reasons for this stance. It is the Argentines who are the aggressors and who stand condemned in the eyes of the world through United Nations resolution 502. We in the United Kingdom are the innocent party and, as I have said on several previous occasions, I feel that it would be grossly unfair to penalise our sportsmen and women by denying them the right to participate in international competition abroad simply because the guilty party, Argentina, does not withdraw from such competition. Certainly, Argentina has so far given no indication that its football team will not be going to Spain.

In addition, as I have said before, there must be many millions of people in this country who would think it strange if our teams withdrew from the World Cup because of the actions of Argentina, which is solely responsible for the battle of the Falklands.

As several hon. Members have indicated before, there would be no problem if the Argentine team had been, or were to be, banned from participation. My hon. Friend touched on that point. This is a decision which only the Federation Internationale de Football Associations could take. Its Brazilian President, Dr. Havalange, has already stated that no such ban on the World Cup holders will be made.

My hon. Friend has criticised UEFA for taking no action with FIFA. That is entirely a matter for our own home football associations who are members of those organisation. What debate might have gone on inside UEFA—or, indeed, within FIFA itself if the matter had been raised by Mr. Harry Cavan, chairman of the Northern Ireland Football Association, but also a senior vice-president of FIFA—I cannot say, because I have not been privy to any discussions within those organisations. This is a matter in which Government have no locus whatsoever.

I must emphasise that, however the Government view this situation, the final decision on whether to participate in the World Cup finals is one for the football authorities, and their players. Certainly the authorities have made clear their wish to participate in the World Cup finals.

It has, however, been reported in some papers that a few individual footballers—and perhaps one or two 1160 administrators—have queried the morality of participation. Again, should any player feel that strongly on the issue, the decision whether to go must rest entirely with him.

Public opinion on this issue, like so many others, is difficult to gauge accurately. Certainly, there are indicators such as the recent poll by a Scottish newspaper, which showed that 90 per cent. of those asked favoured their team's participation in the World Cup. Like my hon. Friend, I have had—as one would expect—much correspondence on the matter. Virtually everyone who has written to me has favoured our teams going. Some have made the very valid point that, bearing in mind the love of football by the average Argentine citizen, any withdrawal by the United Kingdom teams would be greeted with great joy in Argentina and be regarded by them as a moral victory over us and presented by the Argentine Government as an indication of world opinion against Great Britain.

Some of the letters that I have had come from people with husbands or sons in our task force now engaged so heroically and perilously in action in and around the Falklands. I would like to quote from one letter from a lady whose husband is on one of our warships. She mentioned how many of her husband's colleagues enjoy their football and support our international teams and who would be saddened by any withdrawal from the World Cup. She said: Argentina must be gloating over the fact that with the possibility of England withdrawing, they may possibly retain the World Cup (though not the Falkland Islands). As the wife of a sailor serving his country, I ask you please to consider these facts Another letter says: What a boost to the spirits of our armed forces if they won, and if not, they would have had a go. A third commented that a boycott May even be misconstrued as guilt or misreported as action taken by FIFA against the aggressor. I return to press speculation, to which my hon. Friend referred. There have been some inferences that, despite my public statements, I have been quietly pressing our football authorities behind the scenes to withdraw from the World Cup. This I emphatically deny. I am in constant touch with the football authorities about the World Cup and a whole range of other footballing matters, and have been since I took office in this post last September. In answer to their questions, I have told them simply that the Government see no objection to their going to Spain. Indeed, as my hon. Friend was kind enough to mention, only three days ago a leaflet of guidance for people travelling to the World Cup was published and distributed under cover of a press statement from me, demonstrating that my Department has gone to some lengths to tackle the potential problem of hooliganism in Spain. My officials have visited all the centres where first round matches are to be played and advised local officials of the preventive measures that we take in Britain. I have visited Madrid for talks with my opposite number.

I have mentioned public opinion in this country. There is also the matter of Spanish public opinion in relation to its effect upon those British supporters who will be going to Spain in support of their teams and in relation to some of the 4 million British people who travel to Spain every year for their holidays.

It has been reported that, because of Spain's cultural and historical links with Latin America, and for other 1161 reasons, public opinion in Spain is running high in connection with the Falklands issue in sympathy with Argentina. For this reason, I think that there must be some increased risk of incidents resulting from contacts between a variety of visiting football fans. We have, however, received assurances from the Spanish Minister for Culture and her Secretary of State for Sport, from the Royal Organising Committee for the World Cup, from regional civil governors, chiefs of police, stadia authorities and so on, that the British teams and their fans are most welcome and that they will enjoy the traditional hospitality which Spain offers our people.

1162 Government business permitting, I intend to be in Spain for a few days of the first phase of the World Cup and will keep in close contact with our three football associations.

To conclude, I repeat that the final decision on whether our three teams participate in the World Cup finals lies solely with the football authorities, and their players. The Government see no objection to their taking part. I hope that this statement will end all future speculation and I;am sure that the House will join me in wishing our three teams great success.