HC Deb 24 May 1982 vol 24 cc761-70
Mr. Robert Hughes

I beg to move amendment No. 14, in page 6, line 11, leave out clauses 8 to 10.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take the following amendments:

No. 15, in page 6, line 12, leave out 'any person' and insert `a single non-profit making organisation'. No. 16, in page 6, line 15, leave out 'in the course of that business'.

Mr. Hughes

These amendments deal with private sector vehicle testing and the Government's policy that the testing stations presently run by the Department of Transport should be transferred to private enterprise.

No Government policy in recent years has been more objectively and comprehensively examined or so thoroughly rejected. The policy was first announced in late 1979 and was opposed by every organisation in the industry. The Select Committee on Transport, an all-party Committee but with a majority of Government Back-Benchers, which took evidence from a wide spectrum of opinion, unanimously recommended that the Government should change their mind. Even after the Second Reading of the Bill, the Select Committee undertook yet another examination of the problem. That step is wholly unprecedented. Having re-examined all the witnesses from the industry, with the exception of Ministers who could argue the case in Committee, the Select Committee again reached the same unanimous conclusion. From 1979 until now, no organisation has positively supported the proposals.

What justification have the Government put forward for persisting against all the advice given to them and all the consultation that has taken place? On an earlier amendment the Under-Secretary of State told us that it was inconceivable that the Secretary of State, having consulted organisations, would not carry out their policy. Here the results of all the consultations were against the Government's policy, but the Government did not take a blind bit of notice of them.

The Government say that they should not be doing what private enterprise can do. It is a pretty lame excuse for proceeding down a path that could have serious road safety implications detrimental to all road users. It is not surprising that Ministers have been unable to persuade anyone to support the policy. To hand the test centre facilities over to private enterprise is to fly in the face of all the facts and against all the history of safety in the road transport industry. The network of stations did not grow by historical accident or like Topsy. The present system arose because the ad hoc system of roadside testing in operation since 1934 was not covering all vehicles on the road.

An attempt was made to speed up the scale of roadside testing between 1963 and 1965, but everyone accepted that that could cover only a small proportion of the vehicles on the road. It became obvious that maintenance was not up to standard and there was much disquiet in all quarters. There was unanimity of view that the only way in which road safety requirements could be met was by establishing a compulsory system of annual inspection through a geographical spread to give country-wide coverage and uniform testing standards. No one can argue that the system in operation since 1968 has been other than an unqualified success and has been, in the words of the famous or infamous television advertisement, a major contribution to road safety". However, we cannot afford to relax the drive to enhance the standard of maintenance, and it was disturbing to learn that from 1974–75 until 1979–80 one-fifth of all vehicles presented for their annual test failed at the first examination. The vehicles were presented for examination and were not stopped at the roadside. Such a failure rate leaves much to be desired. Indeed, 9.2 per cent. of the vehicles presented for the second test also failed the examination. We are talking about 156,000 vehicles failing their first test, and 15,328 vehicles failing their second test. If people think that we should relax safety standards against that background, they are mistaken.

The figures are significant. Even under the present system, it is clear that private enterprise finds it difficult to maintain safety and maintenance standards for vehicles on the road. I am not prepared to hand over the control of testing to private enterprise. The Government will move amendments ensuring that operators cannot run test stations or inspect their own vehicles. However, there can be no margin of error or profit in road safety. Great savings cannot he made by better, more efficient or quicker methods of testing. The strange thing is that there are only one to or two rich pickings. There are 67 main testing stations and 24 auxiliary testing stations.

I know that the House is anxious to make progress. I shall not bore the House with details. However, according to the Select Committee's report, from 1969–70 to 1979–80 the stations had an accumulated deficit of about £500,000. The deficits rose from £500,000 to £2 million in 1975–76. There have been different surpluses. In 1976–77, the surplus was almost £1 million. It rises and falls in precise relation to the amount by which the Government have increased test fees.

In no sense of the word can the business be regarded as part of the free market economy. Given the work involved, it is not a major profit maker. Only a few of the full-time stations are viable. None of the part-time stations is viable. For example, in Scotland there are 19 stations—including those that are part-time. Only the stations at Kilmarnock, Bishopbriggs and Livingston could be viable. Whether hon. Members come from the North of England, the West, or the South, they will know that test stations are not viable concerns. No one believes that it makes sense to break up the chain, leaving the Department with stations that no one wants.

In Committee, the Government conceded that they would be left with many of the stations. The Select Committee was in doubt about the issue. In paragraph 82 of its first report, the Select Committee stated: We also accept the views of the operators' associations"— that does not refer to those outside the business— that if the transfer to the private sector does take place, it would be preferable for the system to be transferred as a complete unit, rather than a number of chains. We therefore recommend that the Department of Transport continues to explore the possibility of the testing station network being taken over by either Lloyd's Register, or by some other organisation of significant standing. Having reconsidered the matter, the Select Committee specifically stated: we have concluded that the transfer of the vehicle testing system to a single organisation or consortium is the only solution acceptable to the industry, and we believe that the Government's proposals, and the Bill, should be amended so as to preclude any alternative solution. Amendment No. 17 covers that point.

What has happened to the so-called Lloyd's option? Apparently the Government have gone cold for some reason and are not pursuing that matter. In Committee, they admitted that things had reached such a stage that they had called in the County Bank to advise on how to privatise the 91 test stations. On 21 March, an article in the Sunday Telegraph stated: Testing times at the County Bank. What a busy week it has been for County Bank. Its executives don't remember one like it. It has acted for MP Kent (bidding for Federated land), helped to bring about the big Saatchi & Saatchi deal with Compton, assisted British Sugar's efforts to keep Berisford at bay and launched AIMs on the way to market. But, last week, it was busy on something else which has not been made public. It has been asked by the Government to privatise the 100 or so heavy goods vehicle testing stations, probably the toughest of the privatisation plans. HGV is non-profit-making; all its income comes from testing fees, and the road haulage and bus companies are going to fight if there is any suggestion that the fees should be bumped up. County has been told to get HGV off the Government's books by the end of the year. Just how it manages that will be interesting. It will be interesting to all of us.

The Government say that that Sunday Telegraph article is over-dramatic. They have admitted that they are looking at ways of privatisation other than a comprehensive whole, against all the advice of the Select Committee.

The case for retention is quite conclusive. Perhaps the Minister will tell us the Government's attitude to the suggestion by the Institution of Professional Civil Servants, which is looking at the possibility of putting together a consortium to keep the service in one whole. The case for retaining the stations as an integral whole is logically compelling.

I remind the House of the concerns expressed by Conservative Members on Second Reading as well as by hon. Members who served on the Transport Select Committee. If they follow the logic of those arguments—if they follow their convictions—they will support amendment No. 15.

Mr. David Howell

It is correct to say that the arrangements for testing public service vehicles have been discussed for some time with a view to possible improvements and developments of the service. I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman and the House about our plans and to show how we are proceeding in a pragmatic and constructive way in this important area.

I concede straight off that we have a basic prejudice in favour of seeing things done outside the Government, where that makes practical good sense, but always in the light of the requirement that the work or the service provided must be done to at least as high a standard, if not higher.

For vehicle testing we have clear aims to achieve in terms of safety standards and service to the industry. I acknowledge straight away the contribution that the present system has made to raising standards of vehicle maintenance and safety. We intend to see that the excellent qualities of the system are maintained and developed in the private sector. But we are also looking for practical improvements—I see no reason against doing that—particularly in the way in which the testing system responds to the needs of the industry that it serves.

It is against that background that we have approached this central question of who should take on the testing. That question has rightly been identified as the one that will determine the success of a private sector scheme.

There is no sense in tryng to prescribe in the abstract what sort of organisation would in theory be most suitable. Specific proposals need to be judged on their merits. I am sure that that is a perfectly fair and sensible point to put. For that reason, we were happy in Committee to accept an amendment from my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Dickens), which now appears as clause 8(8) and (9) and which ensures that the House will be able to judge how well we have chosen before any authorisation can be made of an approved testing authority under clause 8. That is an important safeguard. It is one of many contained in part II that are designed to ensure that the new testing scheme will effectively meet the objectives that I believe we all share.

12 midnight

The aim of the Government is to adopt the arrangements that will best achieve our common objectives. We have had an open mind, which we expressed in Committee, on whether testing should be undertaken by one organisation or by several. We have been very much aware of the dangers of commercial monopoly, but we have also accepted that a non-profit-making body that is responsive to its customers would avoid those dangers.

Therefore, we were willing to take up the recommendation of the Select Committee on Transport that we should pursue the possibility of Lloyd's Register of Shipping becoming involved in testing. I know that that proposal has found favour with many hon. Members, as well as with vehicle operators in the industry. It is one of the proposals of the Select Committee on Transport. It is the final proposal in the report: We therefore recommend that the Department of Transport continues to explore the possibility of the testing station network being taken over by Lloyd's Register or by some other organisation of significant standing. I do not think that anyone can sustain the argument that the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) advanced, that we have in some way neglected or disregarded the detailed and constructive work done by the House of Commons Select Committee on Transport. It urged that we should pursue the possibility of Lloyd's Register of Shipping becoming involved. It also mentioned the idea of an affirmative resolution before we settled the pattern. On both those fronts we have made progress.

Mr. Bagier

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Select Committee made that suggestion as a second best? The Committee's main recommendation was that the testing station network should not be privatised.

Mr. Howell

The Select Committe looked at the alternatives. That is true. However, it came to the conclusion that if the privatisation solution were to be pursued, we should develop our ideas in this area. I am glad to be able to tell the House that our discussions with Lloyd's Register have recently made good progress. I think that the hon. Gentleman will welcome that.

Earlier this month, Lloyd's Register's executive board gave its agreement in principle to a proposal that Lloyd's Register should be associated with the establishment of a new association to undertake vehicle testing. The proposal is that the association would be under the control of Lloyd's Register and would closely resemble it in constitution and operation. The relationship would be reflected in its title—it would be known as Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Association.

I must make it clear that a great deal of work remains to be done on that plan, and I am not yet able to tell the House that we have concluded an agreement with Lloyd's Register. However, our discussions have entered a new phase and I have every reason to believe that the detailed negotiations, which we are now beginning, will be successful. I know that hon. Members on both sides of the House will welcome that development, which is in line with a number of the amendments and arguments put forward by Opposition Members.

Mr. Bob Cryer (Keighley)

Will the Secretary of State elaborate briefly on the relationship between the new Lloyd's Register and the Council of Lloyd's? A Bill has just gone through the House that gives the Council of Lloyd's virtually complete immunity from suit. Will that be extended to the operation of the vehicle testing stations? If that were so, it seems to put people who have high responsibilities outside the scope of legislative common law rights.

Mr. Howell

The hon. Gentleman may be in some confusion between two different bodies, both of which happen to have the name Lloyd's but which have no relation. He is referring to Lloyd's insurance and I am referring to Lloyd's Register of Shipping, which is not connected in any way with Lloyd's insurance. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is reassured on that point.

This development means that we shall be able to transfer the testing network to a body of which the impartiality and independence are unquestioned and which has the competence and resources to provide a nationwide service of the highest standard. With that assurance of the Government's intentions and with the numerous safeguards to which I have referred, the anxieties that have been expressed about the clause, and which were expressed before our plans had been developed as I have just described them, are unfounded and unnecessary. I hope that it is clear that we can and will establish a scheme that will preserve the impartiality and high safety standards that are rightly valued on both sides of the House.

I hope that it will be recognised that the course that we are pursuing is sensible and constructive, that it provides for the future, and that it meets our strong wish, which is the commonsense belief that such matters are better dealt with outside the Government machine. I hope that the amendments will accordingly be withdrawn.

Mr. Richard Needham (Chippenham)

As a member of the Select Committee on Transport, I am delighted that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has taken the opportunity of making the necessary changes to the Bill to incorporate the feeling of the Committee. The Committee had mixed feelings. Its first report did not go against privatisation, but it stated that the case remained to be made. As the Secretary of State said, it encouraged discussions with Lloyd's Register. That has happened. I should like to register my full support for the privatisation of heavy goods vehicle testing stations.

Mr. Robert Hughes

I am grateful to the Secretary' of State for his answer so far. I must point out to the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Needham) that the Select Committee was quite specific. It said that we do not consider that the Government has yet justified its contention that private operators (still to be identified) would carry out the annual testing of commercial vehicles better than the current Department of Transport testing stations. Until the Department bring forward evidence to substantiate their contentions, we believe that the existing system of HGV testing stations should be retained. Meanwhile, the evidence leads us to recommend that within the existing system additional services to vehicle operators can and should be provided … If the Government is nonetheless determined to press ahead with its proposals", the Lloyd's option will come into play.

Nothing that the Secretary of State has said justifies going against the principal conclusions of the Select Committee. Nothing that he has said means that the service will be improved. Such changes as the industry wanted could have been accommodated. It is interesting to note that the industry did not want the proposed change. It was opposed, and remains opposed, to it, although it is forced to accept the Government's proposition. Lloyd's was always a second choice to keep the whole thing together.

As the Secretary of State said, the Government are in a new phase of negotiation with Lloyd's Register. The Lloyd's option is back in the negotiating system. If that is what finally emerges, we shall accept it, as it means keeping the whole system together. It is essential to have geographically uniform standards.

I cannot see why the Secretary of State will not accept amendment No. 15, which specifically states that this matter should be dealt with by a single, non-profit-making organisation. That would meet the wishes of the Select Committee and the Government's oft-stated assertions that they consult people and take account of the views expressed. If the Secretary of State will not accept the amendment, and although there is a difference in philosophy between us, I hope that those who have read the Select Committee report will follow us into the Lobby and support amendment No. 15. In the interests of the industry, road users and safety, amendment No. 15 must be incorporated into the statute.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 15, in page 6, line 12, leave out 'any person' and insert `a single non-profit making organisation'.—[Mr. Robert Hughes.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 189, Noes 273.

Division No, 169] [12, 10 am
Abse, Leo Field, Frank
Adams, Allen Flannery, Martin
Allaun, Frank Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Alton, David Ford, Ben
Anderson, Donald Forrester, John
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Foster, Derek
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)
Ashton, Joe Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Atkinson, N. (H'gey) Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) George, Bruce
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Beith, A. J. Golding, John
Bennett, Andrew (St'kp'tN) Graham, Ted
Bidwell, Sydney Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Hardy, Peter
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Brown, R, C. (N'castle W) Haynes, Frank
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire)
Buchan, Norman Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll)
Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) Home Robertson, John
Campbell, Ian Huckfield, Les
Campbell-Savours, Dale Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Canavan, Dennis Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Janner, Hon Greville
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Cohen, Stanley John, Brynmor
Coleman, Donald Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)
Conlan, Bernard Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Cook, Robin F. Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Cowans, Harry Kerr, Russell
Craigen, J, M. (G'gow, M'hill) Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Crowther, Stan Lamborn, Harry
Cryer, Bob Leadbitter, Ted
Cunliffe, Lawrence Leighton, Ronald
Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) Lestor, Miss Joan
Dalyell, Tam Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)
Davidson, Arthur Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) Litherland, Robert
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Lyon, Alexander (York)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) McCartney, Hugh
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Dewar, Donald McElhone, Frank
Dixon, Donald McKelvey, William
Dobson, Frank McNamara, Kevin
Dormand, Jack McTaggart, Robert
Douglas, Dick McWilliam, John
Dubs, Alfred Marks, Kenneth
Duffy, A. E. P. Marshall, D (G'gow S'ton)
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)
Eadie, Alex Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Eastham, Ken Martin, M (G'gow S'burn)
Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) Maxton, John
English, Michael Maynard, Miss Joan
Ennals, Rt Hon David Meacher, Michael
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Mikardo, Ian
Evans, John (Newton) Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Miller, Dr M, S. (E Kilbride) Spearing, Nigel
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) Spriggs, Leslie
Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) Stallard, A. W.
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Stoddart, David
Moyle, Rt Hon Roland Stott, Roger
Newens, Stanley Strang, Gavin
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Straw, jack
O'Halloran, Michael Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
O'Neill, Martin Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
Palmer, Arthur Tilley, John
Park, George Tinn, James
Parry, Robert Torney, Tom
Penhaligon, David Urwin, Rt Hon Tom
Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Prescott, John Wainwright, E. (Dearne V)
Price, C. (Lewisham W) Walker, Rt Hon H. (D'caster)
Race, Reg Watkins, David
Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S) Welsh, Michael
Richardson, Jo White, Frank R.
Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) White, J. (G'gow Pollok)
Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Whitehead, Phillip
Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) Whitlock, William
Rooker, J. W. Wigley, Dafydd
Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) Williams, Rt Hon A. (S'sea W)
Rowlands, Ted Wilson, William (C'try SE)
Sever, John Winnick, David
Sheerman, Barry Woodall, Alec
Shore, Rt Hon Peter Woolmer, Kenneth
Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) Wright, Sheila
Silkin, Rt Hon S, C. (Dulwich) Young, David (Bolton E)
Silverman, Julius
Skinner, Dennis Tellers for the Ayes:
Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) Mr. Allen McKay and
Snape, Peter Mr. George Morton.
Soley, Clive
Adley, Robert Butcher, John
Aitken, Jonathan Cadbury, Jocelyn
Alexander, Richard Carlisle, John (Luton West)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Ancram, Michael Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)
Arnold, Tom Chalker, Mrs, Lynda
Aspinwall, Jack Channon, Rt, Hon, Paul
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (S'thorne) Chapman, Sydney
Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E) Churchill, W. S.
Baker, Kenneth(St. M'bone) Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n)
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Banks, Robert Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Clegg, Sir Walter
Bendall, Vivian Cockeram, Eric
Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) Cope, John
Benyon, Thomas (A'don) Corrie, John
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Costain, Sir Albert
Best, Keith Cranborne, Viscount
Bevan, David Gilroy Critchley, Julian
Biffen, Rt Hon John Crouch, David
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Dean, Paul (North Somerset)
Blackburn, John Dickens, Geoffrey
Blaker, Peter Douglas-Hamilton, LordJ.
Body, Richard Dover, Denshore
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Boscawen, Hon Robert Dunn, Robert (Dartford)
Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) Durant, Tony
Bowden, Andrew Dykes, Hugh
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Eden, Rt Hon Sir John
Braine, Sir Bernard Eggar, Tim
Bright, Graham Elliott, Sir William
Brinton, Tim Emery, Sir Peter
Brittan, Rt, Hon, Leon Eyre, Reginald
Brooke, Hon Peter Fairgrieve, Sir Russell
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'n) Faith, Mrs Sheila
Bruce-Gardyne, John Farr, John
Bryan, Sir Paul Fenner, Mrs Peggy
Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles
Buck, Antony Fookes, Miss Janet
Budgen, Nick Forman, Nigel
Bulmer, Esmond Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Burden, Sir Frederick Fox, Marcus
Fraser, Peter (South Angus) Luce, Richard
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Lyell, Nicholas
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) McCrindle, Robert
Garel-Jones, Tristan Macfarlane, Neil
Glyn, Dr Alan MacGregor, John
Goodhart, Sir Philip MacKay, John (Argyll)
Goodhew, Sir Victor Macmillan, Rt Hon M.
Goodlad, Alastair McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
Gorst, John McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)
Gow, Ian McQuarrie, Albert
Gray, Hamish Madel, David
Greenway, Harry Major, John
Griffiths, E. (B'y St. Edm'ds) Marland, Paul
Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) Marlow, Antony
Grist, Ian Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Grylls, Michael Marten, Rt Hon Neil
Gummer, John Selwyn Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus
Hamilton, Hon A. Mawby, Ray
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Hampson, Dr Keith Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Hannam, John Mellor, David
Haselhurst, Alan Meyer, Sir Anthony
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Miller, Hal (B'grove)
Hawkins, Paul Mills, Iain (Meriden)
Hayhoe, Barney Mills, Peter (West Devon)
Heddle, John Miscampbell, Norman
Henderson, Barry Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Hicks, Robert Moate, Roger
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Monro, Sir Hector
Hill, James Montgomery, Fergus
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) Morris, M. (N'hampton S)
Holland, Philip (Carlton) Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)
Hooson, Tom Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)
Hordern, Peter Mudd, David
Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd) Murphy, Christopher
Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) Myles, David
Hunt, David (Wirral) Neale, Gerrard
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Needham, Richard
Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Nelson, Anthony
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Neubert, Michael
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Newton, Tony
Kaberry, Sir Donald Normanton, Tom
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Onslow, Cranley
Kershaw, Sir Anthony Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.
Kimball, Sir Marcus Page, John (Harrow, West)
King, Rt Hon Tom Page, Richard (SW Herts)
Kitson, Sir Timothy Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil
Knight, Mrs Jill Parris, Matthew
Knox, David Patten, John (Oxford)
Lang, Ian Pattie, Geoffrey
Langford-Holt, Sir John Pawsey, James
Latham, Michael Percival, Sir Ian
Lawrence, Ivan Pink, R, Bonner
Lee, John Pollock, Alexander
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Porter, Barry
Lester, Jim (Beeston) Proctor, K, Harvey
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo) Rathbone, Tim
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)
Loveridge, John Rees-Davies, W. R.
Renton, Tim Stradling Thomas, J.
Rhodes James, Robert Tapsell, Peter
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Ridley, Hon Nicholas Temple-Morris, Peter
Ridsdale, Sir Julian Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Rifkind, Malcolm Thompson, Donald
Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Thornton, Malcolm
Rossi, Hugh Townend, John (Bridlington)
Rost, Peter Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Royle, Sir Anthony Trotter, Neville
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy van Straubenzee, Sir W.
St, John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) Viggers, Peter
Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) Waddington, David
Shelton, William(Streatham) Waldegrave, Hon William
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Wall, Sir Patrick
Shepherd, Richard Waller, Gary
Silvester, Fred Ward, John
Sims, Roger Warren, Kenneth
Skeet, T. H. H. Watson, John
Smith, Dudley Wells, John (Maidstone)
Speed, Keith Wheeler, John
Speller, Tony Whitney, Raymond
Spence, John Wickenden, Keith
Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) Wiggin, Jerry
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Wilkinson, John
Sproat, Iain Williams, D. (Montgomery)
Squire, Robin Winterton, Nicholas
Stainton, Keith Wolfson, Mark
Stanbrook, Ivor Young, Sir George (Acton)
Stanley, John Younger, Rt Hon George
Steen, Anthony
Stevens, Martin Tellers for the Noes:
Stewart, A. (E Renfrewshire) Mr. Anthony Berry and
Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) Mr. Carol Mather.
Stokes, John

Question accordingly negatived.

Further consideration of the Bill adjourned.—[Mr. Archie Hamilton.]

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee, and on recommittal), to be further considered this day.

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