§
Amendments made: No. 74, in page 49, line 26, leave out from 'there' to 'In' in line 28 and insert
'are inserted the following subsections—
§
No. 75, in page 53, line 28, leave out from beginning to 'In' in line 29 and insert
'(3) After subsection (2) there are inserted the following subsections—
§
No. 76 in page 57 leave out lines 3 to 5 and insert—
'36. Neither section 141(2) of the principal Act nor section 10(1) of the Social Security Act 1980 (duty of the Secretary of State to refer proposals for regulations to the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council and the Social Security Advisory Committee) shall apply—'.[Mr. Newton.]
§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified]
§ Motion made and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.—[Mr. Rossi.]
10.04 pm§ Mr. James Molyneaux (Antrim, South)I shall be brief but I wish, on behalf of my party and the people of Northern Ireland, to express our gratitude to the hon. Members for Pontypridd (Mr. John), Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) and Wood Green (Mr. Race) for ensuring that the needs and the interests of the people of Northern Ireland were not neglected during the Bill's Committee stage. Those hon. Members, in the debates on clause 7, drew attention to the apparent intention to relate the value of payment to what was called the general level of prices obtaining in Great Britain. It was pointed out by the hon. Gentlemen that, although prices in Great Britain would provide a yardstick for the rate of payment mentioned in clause 7 and would apply that to Northern Ireland, apparently no account whatever was to be taken of the level of prices in Northern Ireland, which tends to be much higher than that in Great Britain. The absurdity was to be increased by the intention to introduce separate legislation for Northern Ireland. That legislation in all its essential parts would be identical to the text of the Bill that we are debating this evening but the scale would be related to prices in Great Britain, not in Northern Ireland.
887 The three hon. Gentlemen pressed that case, which happened to be our case, so effectively that the Minister of Social Security, who during his distinguished career in the Northern Ireland Office made himself fully conversant with all the special needs of the Province—and we are extremely grateful to him for all that he achieved during his period there—undertook to ask his advisers to examine and report on the point raised.
The hon. Member for Stockport, North has been kind enough to furnish me with a copy of the Minister's reply, which I gather has been circulated to other hon. Members who served on the Committees. In that reply the Minister explains that the uprating will be determined in relation to the general level of prices in the United Kingdom as a whole. For that we are very grateful. The Minister goes on to point out that there is not and never has been a price index for Great Britain alone, and I therefore assume that the draftsmen preparing the Bill for Great Britain alone decided to tidy up the operation and invent a price index for Great Britain alone. Presumably that is the reason for, and the history of, the reference to Great Britain in clause 7
But there is another far more fundamental point arising from the short debate on clause 7 in Committee. The hon. Member for Stockport, North said in Committee:
It is a farce to deal with Northern Ireland by secondary legislation."—[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 21 January 1982; c. 240.]With that we heartily agree. The Minister remarked in defence that this was the way we had dealt with legislation for Northern Ireland for a very long time, and then he added very significantly "certainly since direct rule". The implication that the rubber stamp procedure was employed before direct rule was correct; the Minister was absolutely correct about that, particularly when it came to legislation such as the Bill that we are discussing. But the Minister reminded us that the principle of parity was being maintained throughout this Bill and he rightly referred to that as the traditional parity. Therein lies the lesson, because it was the acceptance of that principle of traditional parity that led Stormont Governments for over 50 years to repeat or ditto all such legislation. In those days it was done by Bill; now it is done by Order in Council.The hon. Member for Stockport, North was right when he said that we were engaging in a farce, and we are participating in the same farce tonight when we complete this Bill for Great Britain and, at a latter stage, enact in one form or another the very same legislation, without an alteration to a dot or a comma, for that other part of the United Kingdom, possibly by secondary legislation.
I trust that right hon. and hon. Members will come to recognise the farce for what it is, and that this one and the same Parliament will cease to employ two entirely different methods of legislating for the same unit of the same United Kingdom.
§ Mr. RossiIt is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux). I am grateful to him for his references to my service in Northern Ireland for two years, which was a period of great privilege for me.
On the hon. Gentleman's question about the general level of prices and the wording of clause 7, I should explain that the Bill relates only to Great Britain because until it is implemented by Order in Council it cannot apply 888 to Northern Ireland. Therefore, references must be made to the general price level in Great Britain, but the practice in all legislation where levels of prices are automatically followed through in Northern ireland is that the United Kingdom retail price index is always referred to. So there was never any peril that the people of Northern Ireland would be disadvantaged in any way, notwithstanding what Opposition hon. Members may have whispered in the hon. Gentleman's ear. I made that perfectly clear in Committee and confirmed it in a letter to the hon. Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett).
The hon. Gentleman raised the question of the form of legislation as it applies to Northern Ireland. Whether we should be legislating here directly for Northern Ireland, as I know is the view of some hon. Members who represent constituencies in Northern Ireland, or whether we should continue to do it by Order in Council is a path on which I dare not trespass. I know that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not follow him in a discussion of that matter, because of the vast constitutional implications.
I welcome the hon. Gentleman's intervention. The people of Northern Ireland have been fully protected. They will benefit from the Bill in every way, in the same way as the citizens of Great Britain will benefit.
§ Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 155, Noes 103.
890| Division No. 104] | [10.10 pm |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Forman, Nigel |
| Aspinwall, jack | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Atkinson, David(B'm'th, E) | Fox, Marcus |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Gardiner, George(Reigate) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Benyon, Thomas(A'don) | Gorst, John |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Greenway, Harry |
| Best, Keith | Griffiths, PeterPortsm'th N) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Grist, Ian |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Blackburn, John | Hamilton, Michael(Salisbury) |
| Bottomley, Peter(W'wich W) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Bright, Graham | Heddle, John |
| Brinton, Tim | Henderson, Barry |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Hicks, Robert |
| Brotherton, Michael | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Brown, Michael(Brigg&Sc'n) | Hill, James |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Hogg, Hon Douglas(Gr'th'm) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Holland, Philip(Carlton) |
| Buck, Antony | Hunt, David(Wirral) |
| Budgen, Nick | Hunt, John(Ravensbourne) |
| Burden, Sir Frederick | Jessel, Toby |
| Butcher, John | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Carlisle, John(Luton West) | Knox, David |
| Carlisle, Kenneth(Lincoln) | Lang, Ian |
| Chapman, Sydney | Latham, Michael |
| Churchill, W.S. | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Clarke, Kenneth(Rushcliffe) | Lee, John |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Cockeram, Eric | Lewis, Kenneth(Rutland) |
| Cope, John | Lloyd, Peter(Fareham) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | McCrindle, Robert |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | MacGregor, John |
| Dover, Denshore | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Dunn, Robert(Dartford) | Major, John |
| Eggar, Tim | Mather, Carol |
| Fairgrieve, Sir Russell | Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus |
| Faith, Mrs Sheila | Mawby, Ray |
| Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Mellor, David | Speller, Tony |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Spence, John |
| Miller, Hal(B'grove) | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) |
| Mills, Iain(Meriden) | Sproat, Iain |
| Mills, Peter (West Devon) | Stainton, Keith |
| Moate, Roger | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Stanley, John |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Morgan, Geraint | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton S) | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Murphy, Christopher | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Neale, Gerrard | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Neubert, Michael | Thompson, Donald |
| Newton, Tony | Thorne, Neil(llford South) |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Parris, Matthew | Townend, John(Bridlington) |
| Patten, Christopher(Bath) | Trippier, David |
| Percival, Sir Ian | Viggers, Peter |
| Pollock, Alexander | Waddington, David |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Waller, Gary |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Ward, John |
| Rathbone, Tim | Warren, Kenneth |
| Renton, Tim | Watson, John |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Wells, Bowen |
| Rhys Williams, SirBrandon | Wells, John(Maidstone) |
| Ridley, HonNicholas | Wheeler, John |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | Wickenden, Keith |
| Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) | Wilkinson, John |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Rossi, Hugh | Young, SirGeorge(Acton) |
| Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | |
| Shaw, Michael(Scarborough) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Mr. Robert Boscawen and |
| Silvester, Fred | Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones. |
| Skeet, T. H. H. |
| NOES | |
| Ashton, Joe | Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) |
| Atkinson, N.(H'gey, ) | Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. |
| Bennett, Andrew(St'kp'tN) | Cook, Robin F. |
| Booth, Rt HonAlbert | Cowans, Harry |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) |
| Bradley, Tom | Crowther, Stan |
| Buchan, Norman | Cryer, Bob |
| Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n&P) | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Cunningham, DrJ. (W'h'n) |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Dalyell, Tam |
| Davidson, Arthur | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Martin, M(G'gowS'burn) |
| Deakins, Eric | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Dixon, Donald | Mikardo, Ian |
| Dormand, Jack | Mitchell, R.C. (Soton Itchen) |
| Douglas, Dick | Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Dubs, Alfred | Morton, George |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | O'Neill, Martin |
| Eadle, Alex | Parry, Robert |
| Eastham, Ken | Powell, Raymond(Ogmore) |
| Ellis, R.(NE D'bysh're) | Race, Reg |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Radice, Giles |
| Ewing, Harry | Roberts, Albert(Normanton) |
| Field, Frank | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Fletcher, Ted(Darlington) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Freud, Clement | Rowlands, Ted |
| Golding, John | Sever, John |
| Grant, George(Morpeth) | Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) |
| Hamilton, James(Bothwell) | Silverman, Julius |
| Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Smith, Cyril(Rochdale) |
| Haynes, Frank | Spearing, Nigel |
| HomeRobertson, John | Stoddart, David |
| Homewood, William | Stott, Roger |
| Hooley, Frank | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. | Thomas, Dafydd(Merioneth) |
| Hoyle, Douglas | Thorne, Stan(PrestonSouth) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Tinn, James |
| John, Brynmor | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda) | Wainwright, R.(ColneV) |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Welsh, Michael |
| Kilfedder, James A. | White, Frank R. |
| Lamond, James | Whitlock, William |
| Leighton, Ronald | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Winnick, David |
| Litherland, Robert | Woodall, Alec |
| McElhone, Frank | Wright, Sheila |
| McGuire, Michael(Ince) | |
| McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| McNamara, Kevin | Mr. Ioan Evans and |
| McWilliam, John | Mr. Hugh McCartney. |
| Marks, Kenneth |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill read the Third time and passed.