HC Deb 18 March 1982 vol 20 cc467-9
7. Mr. Christopher Price

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the cost of the computing services for which his Department is responsible; and for what purposes they are used.

8. Mr. Skinner

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the cost of the computing services for which his Department is responsible; and for what purposes they are used.

Mr. Whitelaw

The Estimates for this financial year provide £7.8 million for the police national computer and some £6 million, excluding staff costs and overheads, for other computer systems for which the Home Office is directly responsible. These include staff records, pay and accounts, the production of statistics, and support for the work of the immigration and nationality and prison departments.

Mr. Price

What about the MI5 £20 million computer in Mount Street, Mayfair, which, although technically operated by the MOD, is actually under the control of the Secretary of State? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is a legitimate subject for scrutiny in Parliament if one computer under the control of the Government has access to every other computer, including computers in the DHSS and the Inland Revenue, and thus to every individual citizen? Will the new White Paper on data protection say anything about the MI5 computer, about which there has been so much publicity? The Home Secretary should say something.

Mr. Whitelaw

We hope to publish a White Paper on data protection shortly. I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's comments. I must make it clear, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made clear, that it is not the Government's practice to comment on questions about the operations of the security services.

Mr. Skinner

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that as 1984 looms nearer the Government, who were elected on a ticket of freedom for all, are spending £20 million on a computer in Mayfair to snoop on millions of innocent people, when at the same time they tell us constantly that they cannot find the same slick computing expertise to churn out information to enable old-age pensions to be paid in less than six months? Why do the Government not turn their attention to that instead of concentrating on security matters?

Mr. Whitelaw

I refuse to comment on the hon. Gentleman's usually extravagant remarks. I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price).

Mr. Butcher

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, even allowing for proper data protection safeguards, the file matching and cross-referencing facilities of mainframe computers can be invaluable in the investigation of major crimes and would, for example, have greatly assisted the police in the Yorkshire ripper case?

Mr. Whitelaw

That is certainly true of all criminal work. I hope that those hon. Members who constantly ask questions about crime will be the first to say that they want to deal with crime and that they will support the police in doing so.

Mr. Cryer

Surely it is a matter of genuine public concern that the non-accountable Department that is embarking on massive computerisation already has access to other Government Department's records. Is this not a step in the direction of a police State? Is the right hon. Gentleman not participating in it by giving a carefully worded answer that is designed to block questions for at least three months in the House and, therefore, to evade democratic accountability?

Mr. Whitelaw

I have not found it possible, as Home Secretary, to evade democratic accountability, especially in recent days. I do not accept some of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. I have nothing to add to my earlier reply.

Mr. Dickens

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members feel that the Government's White Paper on computer protection is long overdue for commerce, industry and individuals? Does he appreciate that many people throughout the country feel that their privacy is under threat because of the lack of data protection in the United Kingdom compared with the protection that exists in other European countries?

Mr. Whitelaw

I hope that I shall be able to satisfy my hon. Friend when the White Paper on data protection is published, which will be very shortly.