HC Deb 09 March 1982 vol 19 cc706-8
3. Mr. Meacher

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what progress has been made in the negotiations on the current nurses' pay claim.

11. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the progress of the negotiations on nurses' pay.

12. Mr. Race

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what progress is being made in reaching pay settlements for Health Service ancillary staff, nurses and midwives, ambulance staff, and administrative and clerical staff in the 1982–83 pay round.

The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. Norman Fowler)

All these groups have settlement dates of 1 April. All have submitted claims, and some of the Whitley councils have begun negotiations. In the case of the nurses, these are continuing at a meeting today, and I hope that they will be helped by the addition to the pay factor that I announced yesterday. All told, we are making available an extra £82 million for the pay bill of nurses and some other staff groups.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I propose to call first those hon. Members whose questions are being answered.

Mr. Meacher

Is the Secretary of State aware that the new 6.3 per cent. pay offer in no way satisfies the nurses' rightful demands? In the period since July 1975 the police have had a pay increase of 243 per cent., whereas staff nurses have had an increase of much less than half that amount—110 per cent. Surely nurses are worth every bit as much as policemen. Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that the 76 per cent. increase in the nurses' pay bill since 1979, which the right hon. Gentleman keeps trumpeting, reflects an increase in staffing of 21,000, not an increase in pay, and that it has still left nurses' pay increases substantially—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is arguing a case instead of asking a question.

Mr. Fowler

The hon. Gentleman is typically overstating his case and he is typically wrong. We are entirely committed to seeking fair treatment for nurses. That is why we have already devoted an extra £1 billion to the nurses' pay bill, are finding extra money for this pay round and are also seeking a permanent and new way of settling nurses' pay. I believe that that will be recognised by both the nurses and the public.

Mr. Hamilton

Does the Secretary of State seriously think that, with inflation at 12 per cent., a 6 per cent. offer to nurses is adequate? Does he realise that it represents a swingeing reduction in the standard of living of the most dedicated profession in the country, and that it comes ill from the Government to offer that kind of money to nurses at a time when they are offering 10 per cent. or more to Civil List annuitants and others?

Mr. Fowler

At the last Social Services Question Time the hon. Gentleman urged me to do exactly what I have done—that is, to put more money on the table for nurses. We have made available an extra £63 million for nurses. In other words, we are giving money to the people who are most concerned with patient care.

Mr. Race

Will the Secretary of State tell the House who is to pay for the offer to nurses and midwives? Will not one-third of the cost of the revised offer be paid for by local health authorities, not by the Government? Does that not mean cuts in nursing staffing standards? Does he realise that this morning the nurses and midwives management side refused to give an assurance to the staff side that there would not be cuts in nursing staffing standards as a consequence of the Government's proposals? When will he do this for all NHS workers?

Mr. Fowler

There is no reason why there should be a cut in services as a result of what is being proposed. We propose that two-thirds of the extra money should come from the Contingency Fund and that the other third should come from the health authorities. They will be asked to provide about £27 million out of a total annual budget of £11 billion. In my view, that is not asking too much.

Mr. Paul Dean

In contrast to the carping comments from the Opposition Benches, I warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend on making available an additional £82 million, two-thirds of which is to come from the Contingency Fund, to meet the good case that nurses have made. Will my right hon. Friend now build on that and ensure that before next year there is a full review of the nurses' pay structure to avoid difficulties that have existed for so many years?

Mr. Fowler

Our essential aim is to provide the best standard of service to patients. Therefore, we want to ensure that the National Health Service recruits and retains trained staff, such as nurses. I am sure that my hon. Friend is quite right about that. I shall be present next week at a meeting between the staff side and the management side and we shall seek to make progress on the long-term aim, which many nurses regard as the main aim and purpose.

Mrs. Dunwoody

The Secretary of State now seems to have taken to negotiating in the papers instead of through the staff negotiating machinery. By taking one-third of the money out of the budgets of the hospital authorities, will not the right hon. Gentleman, in effect, be forcing them to make cuts in other sectors? If so, where does he expect those cuts to be made?

Mr. Fowler

No, that is not so. Moreover, I am not negotiating. The Whitley council is negotiating on nurses' pay. As I told the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. Race), we are asking the health authorities to provide £27 million out of a budget of over £11 billion. There is no reason why that should affect services. A fair deal for nurses is surely the prerequisite of a good Health Service.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

I warmly welcome the additional funds that my right hon. Friend has made available for nurses' pay. Is he aware that there is still considerable concern among Conservative Members that the gap between the wages of nurses and other essential workers is widening, not narrowing? We hope that the nurses on the wards will be paid a really good wage for the dedicated service that they provide.

Mr. Fowler

I entirely share my hon. Friend's view. The Government are making progress on the long-term arrangements for nurses' pay. That is vital for the nursing profession.

Mr. William Hamilton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the grossly unsatisfactory nature of the Secretary of State's reply, I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.