§ The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
§ Mr. StrawIs the Prime Minister aware that mealy-mouthed, half-hearted, fence-sitting comments in the House on Tuesday and in a written answer yesterday 400 strongly suggest to the world that, whatever her Minister with responsibility for sport and the Foreign Secretary may say or think, she privately condones this tour and the racist regime in South Africa? To clear the air, will she now give a straight answer to a straight question: does she condemn this tour? "Yes" or "No"?
§ The Prime MinisterI am not mealy-mouthed about upholding the Gleneagles agreement or about the right of freedom of people in this country to travel. Both are very important indeed. I have given a written answer. I have nothing further to add. I endorse what my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said today, that he thinks that perhaps this tour is a mistake.
§ Sir William ClarkWill my right hon. Friend today consider the effect of a £9 billion reflationary Budget next week? Does she agree that if there were such a Budget the public sector borrowing requirement would go up by at least £6 billion, which would increase the interest paid, and that that would hit industry, jobs, and so on? Does she further agree that every one point increase in interest charges means that the cost of the national debt goes up by £1,000 million per annum?
§ The Prime MinisterI entirely agree with my hon. Friend that if an increase in expenditure of that amount were put on to the borrowing requirement, interest rates would go up very sharply. I cannot confirm my hon. Friend's figures, but I share his general view, and I can say that the payments of interest on debt have gone up enormously. They were about £2 billion in 1970. This year they are ?15 billion, which is more than we spend on either national health or education.
§ Mr. FootI come back to the answer that the right hon. Lady gave a minute or two ago about the cricket tour. Does she not now appreciate that the answer that she gave on Tuesday, far from assisting the situation, only made it worse, and that her further equivocal answer here today continues to make the situation worse? Can she say , without any equivocation, that she entirely agrees with what the Foreign Secretary said on the matter and repudiates what her Back Benchers have, said on the matter?
§ The Prime MinisterThe right hon. Gentleman cannot have been listening. In my last reply I endorsed what my right hon. and noble Friend the Foreign Secretary said on the matter.
§ Mr. HannamWill my right hon. Friend take time today to remind the country that Britain and the United States are the only two major countries that had lower inflation in 1981 than in 1979?
§ The Prime MinisterSome figures have recently been released. What my hon. Friend says is true in relation to the end of 1981 compared with the end of 1979.
§ Q2. Mr. Bob Dunnasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 4 March.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. DunnDoes my right hon. Friend accept that the declaration of nuclear-free zones by the GLC and other Labour-controlled local authorities will be construed only as a sign of weakness by our enemies? Does she agree that it is amazing how few people, especially among those on 401 the Opposition Benches, are prepared to learn from the lessons of East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland and Afghanistan?
§ The Prime MinisterI agree totally with my hon. Friend. The policy of nuclear deterrence has kept Britain in peace for 30 years. To abandon that policy now, just when the threat to freedom is acute and powerful, would be the height of irresponsibility.
§ Mr. LitherlandDoes the Prime Minister agree that, with the millions of bricks that are being stockpiled, the thousands of construction workers on the dole and the millions remaining on housing waiting lists or living in substandard housing, her policy is one of shame and failure and calls for a debate in the House or the resignation of the Secretary of State for the Environment?
§ The Prime MinisterWe have housing debates from time to time and we shall have them in future. Many of us would wish to see a greater proportion of public spending directed to capital expenditure. Most of the demands that we get are for increases in current expenditure. Local authorities this year have substantially underspent their capital allocations.
§ Mr. ChurchillMay I congratulate my right hon. Friend on taking the initiative among the oil-producing nations to procure a sharp downward trend in oil prices? Does she agree that this step provides Great Britain and the entire Western industrialised world with the opportunity to break out of the, vicious economic circle of recent years into what lain Macleod called the "virtuous circle" in which lower inflation leads to economic expansion, generating greater resources and savings, which in turn lead to lower taxation?
§ The Prime MinisterThe price of North Sea oil has decreased by about $4 a barrel. This is very good news for industry as it will lower industrial costs and help to reduce inflation. It is good news also for increasing world trade, as money that would otherwise have been spent on oil will now be available for the purchase of other goods, and our industry is now in a good position to take advantage of that expansion.
§ Q3. Mr. Barry Jonesasked the Prime Minister what are her official engagements for 4 March.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. JonesWhat will the right hon. Lady do to end the humiliation and the despair of the long-term unemployed? Is she aware that many men over the age of 50 fear that they might never work again? Does she understand that much of the desperate competition for the Nissan development stems from the fact that five of the British regions have unemployment of over 17 per cent?
§ The Prime MinisterI know of the hon. Gentleman's interest in trying to secure the Nissan development for his constituency, should it come to this country. That has not yet been finally decided. As he will be the first to recognise, the ending of long-term unemployment will stem only from creating new industries. The Department of Industry is doing a great deal to support the creation of new industries and small business—or the expansion of existing ones. We hope that from the recent fall in oil prices we shall be in a position to try to get some more 402 expansion. We shall continue our policy of supporting and encouraging the development of new industries and expanding small businesses.
§ Mr. Beaumont-DarkWill my right hon. Friend spare a moment today to congratulate the Leader of the Opposition on being reselected for Ebbw Vale, something which many of his distinguished colleagues seem unable to do in their constituencies?
§ The Prime MinisterI do so gladly. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman keeps his position as Leader of the Opposition for many years to come.
§ Mr. George CunninghamHas the Prime Minister noticed recently that, contrary to the law of the European Community, the French have been subsidising their farmers? Rather than attack the French for doing that, will she join forces with them? Only if members are prepared to support their individual economies in that way has the Community any chance of surviving.
§ The Prime MinisterIf we get into a position where we have competitive subsidies, Britain may in the end lose. I think that it is a far better policy to try to secure the reduction of national aids and subsidies of the sort that France is applying. As the hon. Gentleman knows, France has been referred to the European Court over this policy.
§ Mr. FairbairnWill my right hon. Friend take time today to note that British Airways on its 14 Scottish Highlands and Islands air routes has been able to dispense with two-thirds of its staff without affecting the service, thus changing a prospective £6.5 million loss to a £1 million profit? Will she take steps to ensure that all nationalised industries do the same so that private industry can fund real jobs and not be forced to sustain imaginary ones?
§ The Prime MinisterThat sounds an excellent example of reducing overmanning and turning a loss into profit. I hope that it will be pursued throughout British Airways to the great advantage of both British Airways and the British taxpayer. I congratulate British Airways on its achievement.
§ Mr. Kilroy-SilkDid the right hon. Lady's earlier reply to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition mean that she condemns the cricket tour of South Africa and those of her hon. Friends who support it?
§ The Prime MinisterI have answered so many questions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer".]—on this issue. I have nothing to add to the answers that I have given.
§ Q4. Mr. John Townendasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 4 March.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. TownendIs my right hon. Friend aware of the growing impatience of many small business men at the reluctance of her Government either to reform or abolish wages councils? Is she further aware that they cannot understand how the Government can stand by and see jobs lost by awards which raise wage costs by 16 per cent. or more at a time when the Government are trying to restrict increases to their employees to 4 per cent.?
§ The Prime MinisterI know of the anger that some of the wages councils' increases have caused, especially 403 among a number of small businesses. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment has recently written to two wage councils to draw their attention to this fact. I believe that we are constrained by our agreement with the ILO convention until 1985. However, we are considering the matter now.
§ Mr. WellbelovedHas the Prime Minister noted the double standards of those who pay lip-service to the condemnation of the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan while encouraging sportsmen to play on the blood-soaked playing fields of Moscow? Will she avoid making the same error by clearly condemning those who have offended every decent instinct by taking their cricket bats to South Africa?
§ The Prime MinisterWe endeavour to apply the same rules. We try to dissuade sportsmen from going to events that we think are contrary to the Gleneagles agreement or, in the case of Afghanistan, those that will give aid and comfort to Soviet Russia. We try to dissuade in both cases, but in the end we accept that our only powers are those of persuasion and that ultimately people are free to decide for themselves.
§ Q5. Mr. John MacKayasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 4 March.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. MacKayDid my right hon. Friend have time to notice that last weekend the Liberal Party council voted against the Government's Employment Bill? Does not that cause further confusion over the so-called "Alliance"—some are for it, some are against it and some do not know? Should not the electors of Hillhead notice that the alliance party not only faces both ways but in all directions at the same time?
§ The Prime MinisterI entirely agree with my hon. Friend. There may be confusion on those Benches, but there is none on ours. We are fully in support of the Employment Bill and we believe that the vast majority of our citizens are as well.
§ Mr. MeacherIs the Prime Minister aware of today's reports that MI5 has set up a gigantic secret State data bank in Mayfair which is two and a half times the size of the already vast police national computor? Is she aware that MI5 has been given unlimited access to the files of other Government Departments, which it is using to build up a comprehensive national filing system on each individual? Is this not 1984 writ large? Will the right hon. Lady legislate to ensure that this monstrous system is checked by a proper security-cleared consultant appointed by an independent data protection authority?
§ The Prime MinisterThe hon. Gentleman knows that it is the practice—long hallowed by all parties—not to comment from this Dispatch Box on matters of security.