§ 12. Mr. Haynesasked the Lord Privy Seal what information is available to Her Majesty's Government about the incidence of human rights violations in El Salvador in recent weeks.
§ Mr. LuceI have seen reports that civilians were killed during security force operations in the province of Morazan in December 1981 and in the suburbs of San Salvador earlier this year. There have also been reports of the killing of civilians by guerrillas. We have no independent means of verifying any of these reports.
§ Mr. HaynesIs the Minister aware that many people in this country are deeply concerned about Government action on human rights? Is he also aware that the Government's record is certainly not Persil-white? When will he and the Government come out into the open from behind Reagan's cloak and do something about the problem?
§ Mr. LuceIt seems strange that the hon. Gentleman should pose this question in such a hysterical way when if he had been present during the debate last night he could have made a contribution. [Interruption.] I do not recall his presence in the House.
During that debate—and clearly the hon. Gentleman did not listen—the Government condemned violence, from whatever source. We supported a United Nations resolution that a special rapporteur should be appointed to examine the violation of human rights in El Salvador. The hon. Gentleman does the House no good by making such fatuous allegations.
§ Mr. HaynesOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerI shall allow this point of order, because there was a personal reference to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes).
§ Mr. HaynesI ask for your protection in this matter, Mr. Speaker. The public schoolboys on the Conservative Benches think that this is a joke. I was in the Chamber during the debate last night. What is more, I did a duty as Whip on the Opposition Front Bench. Mr. Speaker, I need your protection from that scurrilous attack. The Minister ought to be ashamed of himself.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. If it will help to restore the peace—
§ Mr. Roy HughesWithdraw.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I saw the hon. Gentleman sitting there.
§ Mr. WinnickWithdraw.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Perhaps the Minister will withdraw his remark. I saw the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) last night.
§ Mr. LuceFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. What I was saying was that I did not hear the hon. Gentleman speak last night. If he was unable to do so for other reasons, I withdraw my allegation.
§ Mr. StokesDoes my hon. Friend share my view that there is nothing that the House likes more than discussing matters over which it has little or no control? Does he agree that, much as we may dislike what is happening in El Salvador, there is very little that we can do about it?
§ Mr. LuceThere is widespread anxiety about the situation in El Salvador. I agree that certain hon. Members seem to think that they have every right to interfere in the internal affairs of El Salvador. It is important to have a balanced judgment on this occasion.
§ Mr. WinnickWhat about Poland?
§ Mr. Clinton DavisLast night the Lord Privy Seal made great play of the fact that the Government have made many appeals to the El Salvador Government, and others, to bring offenders responsible for breaching human rights and causing deaths to trial. What effect have the Government's pleas had on the El Salvador Government, who, with their sponsored death squads, were responsible for thousands of deaths in 1981 alone?
§ Mr. LuceLast night we had a full debate in which the whole House seemed to agree that there were two sources of violence—the Right wing, and some military elements, and the Left-wing guerrillas. It is sensible for the House to deplore violence from any source.