Heavy Lorries (Hansard, 16 June 1982)

§ 14. Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson
asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he has decided on the maximum permissible lorry weights.

Mr. Howell
I hope to make an announcement as soon as possible on a wide range of issues affecting heavy lorries, not just weights.
The measures that I have already announced, and their further strengthening, which I hope to announce shortly, reflect my determination to take comprehensive action to deal with the problems created by heavy lorries. I shall do everything practicable to check the growth in heavy lorry numbers and journeys, to control more effectively the vehicles themselves and where they go, to encourage rail freight, build more bypasses and strengthen enforcement of the regulations.

§ Mr. McNair-Wilson
I welcome my right hon. Friend's answer. When he makes his announcement about the maximum permissible weight, will he say whether that will be the ultimate maximum weight that he is prepared ever to permit on our roads?

Mr. Howell
It is certainly the Government's view that any increase in the dimensions of trailers and containers on our roads above the present levels cannot be tolerated. Indeed, one of the proposals is that there should be a maximum height limit, which does not exist at present. It is certainly the Government's intention that there should be no increase in trailer sizes or containers on British roads. On the other hand, it is the Government's view that it makes no sense whatever for these containers to be running around one-third full of air. That cannot help, environmentally or industrially.

§ Mr. Gwilym Roberts
Will the right hon. Gentleman comment of the observations of the Transport and General Workers Union, which has at heart the interests of many of the lorry drivers involved, about the difficulties that would be created by increasing the maximum weight of lorries?

Mr. Howell
I think that the worry that the hon. Gentleman has raised is that there would be fewer vehicles for a given amount of freight, and therefore fewer jobs. That is an understandable worry about the loss of jobs. It is confirmed when firms such as Sainsbury's tell me that they can supply a typical supermarket in the centre of a town, given the present maximum weights, with about 1040-ft containers a day. If the maximum weight limit were raised, it could use as few as six containers a day. That would obviously reduce the number of journeys, and, I am afraid, the number of jobs.

§ Mr. Nelson
Will my right hon. Friend think again before announcing a course of action that will, in my judgment, be gravely damaging politically to our party and damaging to many whose interests we represent in the House? Also, does he agree that the number of heavy lorries on the roads is much more a function of the level of economic activity than the weights of the lorries, and that there is simply no way in which he can guarantee that heavier lorries will mean fewer lorries?

Mr. Howell
My hon. Friend refers to the course of action that we propose as gravely damaging. The Government's concern is to see that the lorry problem is tackled vigorously in a way that it has not been in the past, in the interests of the environment, of controlling the vehicles themselves and where they go, and getting them away from the towns and villages where people live. This, surely, is a desirable course to go on, and I would expect to have my hon. Friend's full support for a comprehensive package of measures to carry forward that objective.

Mr. loan Evans
Since the roads are already heavily congested and the railways under-used, why do the Government not come forward with an integrated transport policy and try to get some of the heavy traffic on to the railways instead of into our cities?

Mr. Howell
In view of earlier exchanges, the hon. Gentleman will no doubt be the first to accept that the key to getting more traffic on the railways, in addition to the encouragement that the Government give through section 8 grants, is to make the railway freight business competitive and provide a good standard of service. That means higher productivity. At the moment attempts to get that are being denied and frustrated.

§ 15. Mr. Dykes
asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he expects to meet representatives from local authorities to discuss controls on heavy lorry movements and parking.

§ Mr. Eyre
My right hon. Friend has recently issued a circular to local authorities telling them that we will pay particular regard to the use that they are making of their lorry control powers when we decide how much expenditure to accept for transport supplementary grant. We are now awaiting their responses in this year's transport policies and programmes.

§ Mr. Hugh Dykes
Is my hon. Friend aware that very many local authority representatives feel that, notwithstanding the increase in lorry weights, the controls on where lorries move and park must be substantially increased? Is he further aware that if there is an attempt by the Government to increase lorry weights there will be the most enormous row with people other than those associated with what is called the emotional environmental lobby?

§ Mr. Eyre
My hon. Friend appreciates that local authorities have wide powers to control the routing of lorries. We shall soon be asking them for details of the amenity controls that they have introduced.

§ Mr. Snape
Does the Minister agree that for most people in this country the heavy lorry is a dirty and dangerous menace that should be controlled far more rigorously by both local and national Government than it is at present? Will his Department publish a list of authorities, including—regretfully—the West Midlands county council, which have not yet implemented the valuable provisions of the 1972 legislation, known as the Dykes Act?

§ Mr. Eyre
I shall consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, and we shall be looking at the response of local authorities in this respect.

§ Mr. Crouch
Is my hon. Friend aware that, notwithstanding the high regard that I have for him personally and for the Secretary of State, I should find it impossible to support any proposition to increase the weight of juggernauts? I do not have the same high regard for the Department itself. In my experience over many years in this House, the Department has let down Ministers, the House and Members by not keeping to its promises on road development. Until our roads are ready, there can be no heavier juggernauts allowed on them.

§ Mr. Eyre
I appreciate my hon. Friend's frankness, but I ask him to await the final package of proposals that my right hon. Friend will bring forward, as I believe that it represents a substantial advancement in environmental conditions, which I know concerns my hon. Friend so much.