HC Deb 28 July 1982 vol 28 cc1115-20
Mr. Allan Stewart

I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 93, line 5, after `1', insert '(1)'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 3, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 23.

Mr. Stewart

Amendment No. 3 is the main amendment in the group. It provides that where an application for a licence is made by or on behalf of a person other than a natural person the application must specify not only the name and address of any employee who is to manage the business but also give full details of the legal person, including the names and private addresses of its directors, partners or other persons responsible for management. This amendment, together with amendments Nos. 8 and 23, which are also concerned with the legal persona problem, are the result of concern expressed by hon. Members in Committee that licensing authorities should be able to find out full legal details of persons who apply for licences.

Mr. Dewar

I welcome the amendments, which improve the Bill. The Minister is right in saying that amendment No. 3 is the key amendment. It is largely a matter of redrafting. One minor matter arouses my curiosity. Paragraph 2(c) of schedule 1, if amendment No. 3 is adopted, will provide that, where the application is made by or on behalf of a person other than a natural person", the application shall specify the full name of the person—this presumably means, if it is not a natural person, the name of the company or partnership—and the full name and address of any employee or agent who is to carry on the day-to-day management of the activity in relation to which the application is made. I wonder whether the phrase "any employee or agent" should not have been "the employee or agent". There will always be someone who is in day-to-day charge. The use of the word "any" almost gives the impression that the question does not need to be answered, because there may not be an employee or agent. There will presumably have to be such a person. I hope that the Minister can confirm that.

Mr. Stewart

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his general welcome for the amendments. In the interests of consistency, it was right to expand the information to be required to include the full name and address of any employee or agent who will be managing the business on the applicant's behalf.

Mr. Carmichael

I should like to ask what may appear a naive question. Will the public be able to see the licences? I am thinking of licences for sex shops which can cause concern among local people. Will there be a register where people can discover who holds the licence?

Mr. Stewart

The public can go the local licensing authority to obtain the information to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I accept that this might be a matter of considerable interest, especially where sex shops are concerned.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 3, in page 93, leave out lines 12 to 34 and insert—

'(2) An application under sub-paragraph (1) above shall specify—

  1. (a) the kind of licence in respect of which the application is made;
  2. (b) where the applicant is a natural person, his full name and address and, where the applicant himself is not to be carrying on the day-to-day management of the activity in relation to which the application is made, the full name and address of any employee or agent who is;
  3. (c) where the application is made by or on behalf of a person other than a natural person,
    1. (i) the full name of the person;
    2. (ii) the address of its registered or principal office;
    3. (iii) the names and private addresses of its directors, partners or other persons responsible for its management; and
    4. (iv) the full name and address of any employee or agent who is to carry on the day-to-day management of the activity in relation to which the application is made;
  4. (d) the address of the premises, if any, in or from which and the area in which the activity is to be carried on; and
  5. (e) such other information as the authority may reasonably require.

(3) Where the application relates to a licence for an activity which is wholly or mainly to be carried on in premises, it shall contain one or other of the following declarations by the applicant, that is to say, a declaration that he is complying with paragraph 2(2) below or a declaration by him that he is unable to do so because he has not such rights of access or other rights in respect of the premises as would enable him to do so, but that he has taken such reasonable steps as are open to him (specifying them) to acquire those rights and has been unable to acquire them.'.

No. 4, in page 94, line 5, leave out '(i) to (v)' and insert `(2)'.—[Mr. Allan Stewart.]

Mr. Allan Stewart

I beg to move amendment No. 5, in page 94, line 43, at end insert— '(aa) shall, in accordance with sub-paragraph (8) below, cause public notice to be given of an application made to them for the grant or renewal of a licence in relation to an activity wholly or mainly to be carried on in premises if the application contains a declaration that the applicant has been unable to comply with the requirements of sub-paragraph (2) above;'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 174 and 175.

Mr. Stewart

The amendment provides that where an application is made in respect of an activity involving premises but it has been impossible to display a site notice advertising the application on such premises, the licensing authority must give public notice of the application in a newspaper. This was a point made by hon. Members in Committee. The other amendments are consequential.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 174, in page 94, leave out line 47 and insert `and notice of which they are not obliged to give under this sub-paragraph'.

No. 6, in page 95, line 4, leave out '(i) to (v)' and insert '(2)'.

No. 175, in page 95, line 13 at end insert 'above'.— [Mr. Allan Stewart.]

Mr. Stewart

I beg to move amendment No. 7, in page 97, leave out from beginning of line 1 to 'and' in line 2.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it is convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 11 and 14.

Mr. Stewart

Amendment No. 7 deletes the Secretary of State's power to make model licence conditions by statutory instrument. The change was strongly represented to the Government as necessary in Committee.

Amendment agreed to

Amendment made: No. 8, in page 97, leave out lines 12 to 14 and insert—

  1. '(a) the applicant or, where the applicant is not a natural person, any director of it or partner in it or any other person responsible for its management, is either—
    1. (i) for the time being disqualified under section 7(8) of this Act, or
    2. (ii) not a fit and proper person to be the holder of the licence;
  2. (b) the activity to which it relates would be managed by or carried on for the benefit of a person, other than the applicant, who would be refused the grant or renewal of such a licence if he made the application himself.'.—[Mr. Allan Stewart.]

Mr. Allan Stewart

I beg to move amendment No. 9, in page 98, line 2, leave out from 'decision' to end of line 6.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 12, 20, 21, 22, 25, 26, 28, 29, 93, 94, 96, 97, 98, 103, 106, 128 and 146.

Mr. Stewart

Amendment No. 9 and the associated amendments have two simple aims. They reduce the total length of the Bill and simplify the time limits for the provision of reasons for decisions. Amendment No. 93 is a drafting amendment. Amendment No. 97 requires a local authority to inform the licence holder, the chief constable and the fire authority of any material change of circumstances as to schedule 2. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) will doubtless be glad to see amendment No. 146, which takes out of the Bill certain lines that he described as a slab of dismaying type.

Mr. Dewar

I am glad. I cannot remember that period of dismay, but there were many in Committee. I am grateful to the Minister for removing one cause of irritation. There is a great deal of sensible rearranging in Government amendments Nos. 128 and 103. Amendment No. 28 rewrites the notification of decisions and the giving of reasons. It provides: A licensing authority shall, within 10 days of being required to do so under sub-paragraph (2) below, give reasons in writing for arriving at any decision of theirs. … Reasons for a decision referred to in sub-paragraph (1) above shall be given by the licensing authority on a request being made to the authority by a relevant person within 28 days of the date of the decision. They seem to be different time scales from those that were originally in the Bill. Most of the references in the Bill, as presently drafted, refer to the supply of written reasons within seven days and application having to be made within 48 hours of the decision. Paragraph 6 of schedule 1 is excised by Government amendment No. 12 and is replaced by the new form to which I have referred. They are not minor variations—48 hours to 28 days is a startling difference and even seven to 10 days is important. I accept that these are matters of judgment and that there are no absolutes. One has to decide on something that seems suitable. As the variation is so substantial, will the Minister say something about the rationale behind it?

Mr. Stewart

The hon. Member will remember that in Committee it was argued that the period of 48 hours for requesting reasons was too short and an extension to one week was sought. There was a general complaint about the complexity of the time limits. Those were the two main points made in Committee. The provisions in the Bill now simplify the interlocking time limits by providing for a notification of decisions within seven days as at present: the request for reasons within 28 days of the decision, and the provision of reasons within 10 calendar days of the request being received. That eliminates two bones of contention—the 48-hour period for requesting reasons and the complex calculations for deciding precisely which seven days the local authority has at its disposal for the provision of reasons.

Persons entitled to request reasons will still be able to receive them within the 28-day appeal period, provided that they request them speedily.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 10, in page 98, line 17, leave out `1(iii)' and insert '1(2)(b) or (c)(iv)'.

No. 11, in page 98, line 23, leave out sub-paragraph (9).

No. 12, in page 98, line 27, leave out paragraph 6.

No. 13, in page 99, line 19, leave out `2 to 4, 5(1) to (4) and 6' and insert `1(3), 2 to 4, and 5(1), (2), (4) to (6)'.

No. 14, in page 99, line 26, leave out lines 26 and 27.

No. 15, in page 99, line 34, at end insert `but, where the holder of or the applicant for a temporary licence has also made an application for a licence under paragraph 1 above in respect of the same activity, the temporary licence, if granted, shall continue to have effect until—

  1. (a) the licence applied for under paragraph 1 has been granted, whether as a result of an appeal under paragraph 17 below or not, or has been deemed to have been granted; or
  2. (b) where the licensing authority have refused that application, the time within which an appeal under paragraph 17 below against that decision may be made has elapsed; or
  3. (c) when such an appeal has been lodged, it has been abandoned or determined.'.

No. 16, in page 99, line 46, at end insert— `(2A) In the event of the death of a holder of a licence (except in the case of a licence referred to in section 13 of this Act) that licence shall be deemed to have been gramted to his executor and shall, unless previously revoked, suspended or surrendered, remain in force until the end of the period of 3 months beginning with the death and shall then expire; but the licensing authority may from time to time, on the application of the executor, extend or further extend that period if they are satisfied that the extension is necessary for the purpose of winding up the deceased's estate and that no other circumstances make it undesirable.'.

No. 17, in page 100, line 3, at end insert— `but, where the remaining holder has made an application under paragraph 1 above for a licence in respect of the same activity within that period of six weeks, that period shall be extended until the time specified in subsection (3B) below.

(3A) If an application for the renewal of a licence is made before its expiry, the existing licence shall continue to have effect until the time specified in subsection (3B) below.

(3B) The time referred to in subsection (3) and (3A) above is—

  1. (a) the time when the licence applied for under paragraph 1 above is granted or renewed, whether as a result of an appeal under paragraph 17 below or not, or has been deemed to have been granted or renewed; or
  2. (b) where the licensing authority have refused that application, the time within which an appeal under paragraph 17 below against that decision may be made has elapsed; or
  3. (c) where such an appeal has been lodged, the time when it has been abandoned or determined.'.

No. 18, in page 100, line 6, after 'not', insert— ',unless it has been deemed to have been granted under section 3(4) of this Act.'.

No. 19, in page 100, leave out lines 13 to 22.

No. 20, in page 101, line 9, leave out from 'authority' to end of line 32.

No. 21, in page 102, line 14, leave out from 'authority' to end of line 18.

No. 22, in page 102, line 24, leave out sub-paragraphs (6) to (9).

No. 23, in page 103, leave out lines 3 and 4 and insert—

  1. (a) the holder of the licence or, where the holder is not a natural person, any director of it or partner in it or any other person responsible for its management, is not or is no longer a fit and proper person to hold the licence;
  2. (b) the activity to which the licence relates is being managed by or carried on for the benefit of a person, other than the licence holder, who would have been refused the grant or renewal of the licence under paragraph 5(3) above;'.—[Mr. Allan Stewart.]

7.15 pm
Mr. Allan Stewart

I beg to move amendment No. 24, in page 103, line 35, at end insert— '(5A) A licensing authority may, whether upon an application made to them or not, recall an order made under this paragraph.'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 27 and 99.

Mr. Stewart

Amendment No. 24 provides that the suspension imposed under paragraph 12 may be recalled either at the licensing authority's instance or on application being made to it by the licence holder. That was a point made by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar). Amendments Nos. 27 and 99 are purely technical.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 25, in page 104, line 29, leave out from 'decision' to end of line 7 on page 105.

No. 26, in page 105, line 37, leave out from 'authority' to end of line 12 on page 106.

No. 27, in page 106, line 28, at end insert— '(4) Where a licence has been surrendered under this paragraph on its revocation under section 7(8)(a) of this Act or its suspension under this Schedule and the revocation or suspension is quashed or recalled the licensing authority shall re-issue the licence.'.

No. 28, in page 107, line 33, at end insert—

    c1119
  1. 'Sending of notice by post 62 words
    2. cc1119-20
  2. Notification of decisions and giving of reasons 381 words