§ Q1. Mr. Pawseyasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 15 July.
§ The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall have further meetings later today. This afternoon I shall leave for a visit to Dorset.
§ Mr. PawseyI thank my right hon. Friend for that typically forthcoming and helpful reply. For the past 143 years, Rugby has been a prosperous railway centre. That prosperity is now threatened by the present ASLEF dispute. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question".] The question will come in a moment.
§ Mr. SpeakerPerhaps the hon. Gentleman would oblige me and bring it at once.
§ Mr. PawseyDoes my right hon. Friend agree that the ASLEF dispute is not supported by the overwhelming majority of railwaymen and, according to the BBC, is not 1165 supported by the majority of the Shadow Cabinet? What advice does my right hon. Friend give to railwaymen in general and to Shadow Ministers in particular on how to get the railways back to normal working?
§ The Prime MinisterMay I in turn thank my hon. Friend for his typically helpful initial question? With regard to the future of the railways, there is no future unless working practices agreed in 1919 are updated. The problem could be quickly over if the ASLEF workers returned to work and accepted flexible rostering, in accordance with the British Rail offer.
§ Mr. FootIn view of the growing gravity of the crisis on the railways, will the right hon. Lady now—desperately late, but still not too late—instruct the Secretary of State for Transport to cease his inaction and take a positive step towards trying to find a solution to the crisis? Does not the right hon. Lady consider it high time that one of her Ministers discussed with the parties concerned the growing crisis that threatens the railways?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir. The board has made it quite clear that if the drivers are prepared in their own interests to accept flexible rostering and return to work in sufficient numbers to enable a timetable and reliable service to be operated the railways need not close. I invite the right hon. Gentleman to join me in an appeal to drivers to accept flexible rostering and return to work.
§ Mr. FootThe appeal that I made to the right hon. Lady a moment ago is exactly the appeal that has been addressed to the Secretary of State for Transport by Mr. Sidney Weighell, whom the right hon. Lady quoted a day or so ago. Mr. Weighell says:
It is the refusal of your Government to honour its commitments to the railway community which is responsible, above all, for that deeper crisis in the railway industry".He also says that he takes the greatest exception to the Prime Minister having the temerity to pray him in aid in defending her policies. Therefore, will the right hon. Lady apologise to Mr. Weighell, to the railway community and, at last, take action to stop this dispute getting even worse?
§ The Prime MinisterI prayed Mr. Weighell in aid only in making a judgment on the right hon. Gentleman. Mr. Weighell was right. The way to end the strike is for ASLEF to accept flexible rostering, as the NUR has, and for people individually to return to work. Then the railway strike will be over. That will be in the interests of the railway and of the whole working population. The Government, through the external financing limit, have given record assistance to the railways and there is a first-class investment programme now in progress.
§ Mr. FootDoes not the right hon. lady think that it is an outrage that, on the eve of a major national crisis such as this, none of her Ministers has seen all the parties concerned?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, I think it is an outrage that the right hon. Gentleman will not appeal to the drivers to return to work.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. LeeWill my right hon. Friend confirm that, despite her Government's criticism of the Israeli action in 1166 Lebanon, she remains a friend of the Israeli people and an admirer of Israel's domestic achievements and democracy?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, we have always admired Israel's democracy and her tremendous achievements in turning that land into a fertile and rich country. We are totally committed to the security of Israel. We believe that that security will be best achieved when Israel and the Palestinian people mutually accept and respect one another's rights.
§ Mr. Roy JenkinsWill the right hon. Lady—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The House is doing itself no good by an exhibition of this sort. The right hon. Gentleman has a right to be heard.
§ Mr. JenkinsDoes the right hon. Lady agree that no formula that allows the ASLEF executive to continue with the equivocation of the past year, or to escape from its clear obligation to accept the McCarthy award, is tolerable? Does she also agree that to keep the support of the other rail unions it is necessary not only to point out the dark consequences of the strike but to make clear the Government's wholehearted commitment, when the present difficulties are overcome, to an efficient railway system with a secure long-term future?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, I agree that we cannot make progress unless we have flexible rostering. The question has been considered for a long time. A few months earlier this year, after having considered it, Lord McCarthy said that
unless progress is made on this question, the future outlook for the railway system and railwaymen is bleak and unpromising".As I pointed out earlier, the external financing limit for this year is about £900 million, and last year it was about £930 million. The operating grant this year, included in that, is about £800 million. I have a list of many projects in which the British taxpayer is investing. They cannot give a return unless we improve the present practices.
§ Mr. MontgomeryHas my right hon. Friend seen reports that in some parts of the country NALGO members are blacking the work that is necessary to inform National Health Service employees of the Government's improved pay offer? Will my right hon. Friend condemn that practice and take every possible step to ensure that the terms of the pay offer are widely known?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, I understand that one of the regional health authorities wished to put details of the pay offer into the pay packets but NALGO blacked the necessary work. It is important that full details of the offer should be conveyed to the employees and we are considering how it can be done.
I urge NHS ancillary workers to accept the 6 per cent., which is the same amount as has been offered to and accepted by the Armed Forces, by the teachers and by the doctors, and is rather more than has been accepted by the Civil Service. We deliberately made a special case of the nurses to give them 7½ per cent., and I believe that that was generally agreed in the House.
§ Mr. Walter JohnsonIs the Prime Minister aware that, although the ASLEF strike cannot possibly be justified, nevertheless it would be wrong to let the railway network close down, because of what that would do to the employment prospects of thousands of railwaymen who 1167 are not involved in the dispute? Therefore, will the Prime Minister change tack and set up a court of inquiry on the understanding that ASLEF calls off the strike?
§ The Prime MinisterNo. There have been endless arbitrations and inquiries, finishing with that of Lord McCarthy, whom I have just quoted. He said that flexible rostering must be accepted.
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the strike will be very damaging, particularly to those who work on the railways, and to many other people who work in other industries. The way to end the strike is for individual members to accept with all speed the terms of the new contract that the British Railways Board has offered, so that they can return to work and the railways be kept going.
§ Mr. MadelDoes my right hon. Friend agree that, instead of constantly urging the Government to solve the rail dispute, people should urge the TUC to direct ASLEF to call off its strike, on the ground that it is detrimental to the trade union movement as well as being detrimental to the country as a whole?
§ The Prime MinisterThe ASLEF strike and the National Health Service strike are both detrimental to the trade union movement as a whole. If the ASLEF executive will not recommend a return to work, it is up to individual members to accept the BRB's offer.
§ Q3. Miss Joan Lestorasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 15 July.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Miss LestorBearing in mind that unemployment among women is now accelerating at twice the rate of unemployment among men and that certain Government measures, such as the work availability tests and other things, will make it even more difficult for women who have the opportunity of a job to take it, will the right hon. Lady state this afternoon that women have an equal right to work? Will she also dissociate herself from comments by some of her colleagues to the effect that married women 1168 should stay out of the labour market and leave it to men? In view of the exhibition that we had earlier from the Treasury Benches, will she take the opportunity to educate some of her male colleagues about the sexually discriminatory tax on articles of sanitary protection for women?
§ The Prime MinisterThis is not a Budget. If the hon. Lady wishes to make representations, doubtless she will do so in due time. With regard to jobs, the people best qualified should have them, regardless of whether they are men or women.
§ Sir Anthony KershawDoes my right hon. Friend regret the decision of many local councils not to take part in the civil defence exercise later this year? Does she agree with the Home Secretary when he says that local councils can no more declare a nuclear-free zone than they declare a snow-free zone?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, local councils cannot declare nuclear-free zones. Many of us wish that nuclear weapons had not been invented, but they have, and it is our duty to make preparations for civil defence to defend the population. It was very disappointing that out of the 54 local authorities that were scheduled to take part in exercise Hard Rock, only 34 were ready to do so. The 20 that were not prepared to do so were all Labour councils.
§ Mr. SpriggsWill the right hon. Lady, when considering all the proposals put to her on the railways dispute, recognise that the British Railways Board and the House have a duty to the nation?
§ The Prime MinisterYes. The railways have a duty of service to the nation. So have all those who work on the railways. The vast majority of those who work on the railways, including some ASLEF members, are still working. Those who are still working, especially the ASLEF drivers, have the great gratitude of the nation. The whole question can be sorted out if the remaining ASLEF members accept flexible rosters, which have been inquired into endlessly. I hope that by Tuesday they will have done so.