HC Deb 10 February 1982 vol 17 cc1060-76

Question again proposed.

Mr. McTaggart

The legislation will give the Government more fiscal powers at the expense of the democratically elected local authorities.

It is criminal for Ministers to come to the House and, during a sale of council houses debate, to speak about being democratically elected, because it was never in their manifesto that they would force through the sale of council houses. Their manifestos at local authority level have been routed throughout Britain. Today, coupled with the everyday problems of housing, we are recovering from one of the most severe winters that Britain has ever seen. Instead of cutting more and more from housing authorities, the Government should ensure that more funds are available so that local authorities can help local people.

10.2 pm

Mr. Dewar

This has been an interesting debate in which we have covered much ground.

I hope that we shall have some further comments from the Under-Secretary of State about the question of storm damage which was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan). It is a question of overwhelming urgency. We are discussing a disaster of a considerable scale and, if we use Glasgow as the prime example, it is by no means the only local authority with a large headache. Most of the larger authorities do not carry insurance, not for something that is reasonably foreseeable, as the hon. Member for Fife, East (Mr. Henderson) seemed to suggest, but against quite unprecedented damage from some of the most severe weather that we have seen this century.

Indeed—I almost blush to quote him again—the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Walker) said that his local authority had a bill of £200,000 and that it too was not insured. That authority has a limited stock of council housing with only 17,000 houses. The problem occurs across the range of local authorities. In Glasgow we are looking at bills that run from £20 million to £25 million. It is difficult to be precise, but that was the best estimate that Glasgow district council could give to me today. This is not a dull accountancy exercise or a matter of moving balances and figures in an account book. We are talking about a human tragedy. Hundreds of families in Glasgow have had to be decanted and displaced from their homes and in my constituency—it would be true of almost all the constituencies of my hon. Friends—hundreds of tenants still have either no water supply or a defective supply.

When one is faced with such a catastrophe it is not right for Governments to stand upon legal niceties. It is not the time—I say this in no spirit of criticism because I realise that the Under-Secretary of State may be in difficulties with the Treasury—to pore over circulars of 1976 and 1978 and to consider the law of contract. It is not a matter for the honed professionalism of the faculty of advocates. The Government must consider their responsibility to people and act in accordance with that responsibility.

I would not go so far as to say that I do not care about the circulars. They are a relevant factor, but I care much more about the people, their suffering and the conditions in which they are being asked to live. If the Minister continues to take his present negative and rather stony-hearted approach to the problem, Glasgow will be in a desperate position.

It looks as if the total capital spending for Glasgow in the coming financial year will be about £50 million. I understand that just over £30 million of that total is legally committed. Even if the council cancelled every new building project and postponed every new modernisation project on its books, it would still not be able to meet the cost of the storm damage out of the capital expenditure that it is likely to be allocated. That situation cannot be allowed to continue. It would be a disaster if it continued. I hope that the Minister will be able to hold out some hope of an improved and more flexible situation.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Craigton was absolutely correct when he said that the precedent of the storm damage in 1968 was extremely valuable and that it should be looked at seriously by Ministers. I do not want to labour and repeat what has been said, but I shall briefly remind the House that at that time in the city of Glasgow, as it then was, £6.4 million was spent on repairs to private sector property. The point was properly urged on the House that the local authority might have taken a restrictive view and said that it was none of its business. However, the local authority moved in to help the tenants as much as the landlords and spent a substantial sum of money.

At the end of the day the total spent was £8.8 million. Only £2.8 million was recovered from landlords. Of the remainder, £5.4 million was met by the Government. If one excludes the sum that was recovered from private landlords, just over 90 per cent. of the total cost came from the Government. I do not know whether it would be possible for this Administration to be as generous on this occasion. However, this is something that the Government should aim for, not in terms of helping Glasgow or of riding rough shod over their business ethics that say that people who are not insured should pay the consequences. However, they should help the tenants whose life style is at risk and help to save property that has been extremely badly damaged by an act of God that was not reasonably foreseeable.

I say those things because that is an immediate catastrophe that must be dealt with. In the order we are looking at the continuing crisis of housing finance in Scotland. The Opposition have a number of fundamental objections to the present order.

First there is the vexed, but important, and, I apologise, technical question of the way in which individual authorities' rate fund contributions have been arrived at. When I first looked at this year's settlement in the order, I understood that there was common ground among the Government, the Opposition and almost all the local authorities that the old method of fixing the rate fund contribution was unsatisfactory.

It was a straight per capita amount—so much per head of the population within the housing authority area was taken to be the notional rate fund contribution in calculating the housing support grant and, ultimately, the level of rents. That led to a large number of distortions that. we discussed during last year's rate support grant debate. I understood that it had been abandoned and that we would take a standard reduction of 35 per cent. in last year's rate support grant.

The Minister will remember that in the Committee on the Local Government and Planning Bill we had a considerable debate about that matter. The Minister explained that, although in a minute of a meeting on 21 December 1981 the phrase "standard deduction" was used, the new method would involve a standard percentage reduction from the Authority's budgeted rate fund contribution for the current financial year. At the time the Minister told me that that was a misunderstanding and a mistake in the minute. He said that there was an ambiguity and contradiction in the minute and said that such a statement had never been intended. That was why the minute had to be re-written in suspicious circumstances, which gave a misleading impression to Glasgow and other authorities in Scotland. I accepted that at face value because the Under-Secretary told me that that was so. I thought that it was striking at his credibility in terms of his competence, but no more.

I am sorry to note that on 17 December—I am obliged to CoSLA for its information which I received today—Mr. Ian Penman of the Scottish Development Department, presumably with the Minister's authority, wrote to CoSLA. Paraphrasing at this point, he said that the old per capita system was to be abandoned. He continued: The limit for each authority will be set on the basis of a standard percentage reduction from the Authority's budgeted rate fund contribution for the current financial year. Again, as plain as a pikestaff, that letter of 17 December appears to contain a statement saying that it would be a standard percentage reduction. That makes it even more puzzling as to why it should have been repeated in the minute of 21 December. I am left with a question mark in my mind whether the Minister was entirely frank when he said that the standard rate percentage reduction was never intended and was all a misunderstanding.

What adds insult to injury and complicates the position even further is, even if we accept that the standard percentage reduction was never intended and that there was to be some measure of flexibility whereby the reduction could be varied from authority to authority, that no fewer than five different methods were used for calculating the individual authority's rate fund contributions. In 46 Scottish local authorities, although there were variations, last year's old per capita system was used.

In the Scottish Standing Committee of 2 February, when we debated the change in the minute of 21 December, the Minister never once departed from the position that, whatever system was being used, although it might not be a standard percentage reduction, it would be by means of a reduction in the rate fund contribution of last year.

CoSLA told me that that did not happen in those 46 authorities and that they were still back at the old per capita system. The kindest thing I can say to the Minister is that by his silence, when we specifically touched on these matters because of the confusion that arose and was so damaging to Glasgow's consideration of its rent and capital allowance positions, he at least had a duty to make it clear that we were no longer dealing with the deductions from last year's rate fund contribution but had returned to the old per capita system.

I must seriously tell the Minister that he has a reputation for reasonable competence and I would not wish to take that away from him, but that reputation is now considerably suffering from the confusion and difficulties which seem to be arising over this order, the rate support grant order, local government finance and generally between local and central government.

The Minister has done a great deal of damage. The debate in the First Scottish Standing Committee was held because the Glasgow council acted, I believe, properly on information imparted to it by telephone at a high level, between officials, and it was then spiritedly attacked by the Minister who said that he was astonished that it should take important decisions on the basis of "rumours, hints and suggestions".

The trouble is that the lack of information and the misinformation issued by CoSLA and hon. Members to the Scottish Standing Committee appears to have left us acting on the basis of rumours, hints and suggestions because we have not had a frank statement from the Government. They have not dealt with it in an honest or proper fashion.

My other main point is the way that the Government have dealt with capital allowances in this Housing Support Order. Of course, I recognise and would be the first to concede that Governments will never be able to satisfy demand on the capital side. No doubt, the £298 million which I understand is the theoretical total available in the coming year is totally inadequate compared with the need which is generally shown by local authorities.

Mr. Hugh D. Brown (Glasgow, Provan)

In the interests of the House and out of courtesy, I wonder if Conservative Members might be quiet.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

There is a good deal of chat going on which I can hear.

Mr. Dewar

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's protection. I will not make too much of the £298 million. My point is as to the way in which specific allocations of individual local authorities have been quarried out of the global total for Scotland.

We have two strong reservations about the way in which this has been done. The first, which was mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Craigton, is the fact that, built into each allocation, is an assumption about the revenue from the sale of council houses. I accept that the Minister is right, and that no doubt he has decided what each authority will get and has made an apportionment within that total between the amount that may be borrowed and the amount that will come from council house sales. I object to the fact that if the local authority does not make its council house sale target, the shortfall is money that it has lost on its capital allocation spend. It means that a tremendous built-in incentive, a blackmail or force majeure situation, is built into the system, whereby, if a local authority does not flog off its houses in a sufficiently energetic way, the people who are waiting for modernisation and rehabilitation of their dwelling houses may be disadvantaged because the housing capital allocation has been cut back in what I consider to be an artificial and dishonourable way.

The other reservation concerns the link between rent levels and the housing capital allocation. This is a matter about which we have complained before. It is a disgraceful and abhorrent innovation. The Government are trying deliberately to force up council house rents, not because the Under-Secretary believes that that is financially necessary but because, as a matter of social judgment, he thinks that rents should be higher and people should pay more for their dwelling-houses. That was made very clear in the speech of the hon. Member for Fife, East. This policy is being carried out at a time when Scotland has faced unprecedented rises in council house rents. In 1980–81, rents rose by 20 per cent. compared with the previous year. In 1981–82, they rose by 30 per cent. compared with the previous year. Now, in 1982–83, the Government come back and ask for a rise of about 25 per cent.

This is a damaging and embittering process which cannot be justified on any social ground. It is not good enough for Ministers to say that it is all right because the honest poor are being looked after by the rent rebate system. If some 60 per cent. of council house tenants cannot reasonably be expected to pay the full rent, there is something wrong with the way in which the rents are cast. It is not a matter for self-congratulation by the Secretary of State for Scotland. It should be a matter for apology and shame.

The simple and inescapable fact is that this housing support grant order is cutting back very significantly the amount of money that is available from housing in Scotland. Shelter, as we have already been told, reckons that it is a cut this year of 15 per cent., piled on top of a cut of 33 per cent. in the last financial year. A number of local authorities have dropped out of support altogether. None of us, in discussing the miscellaneous provisions legislation, and when this machinery was being debated, could have thought—to be fair to the Minister, I am sure that he did not think—that an authority with such obvious housing problems as Renfrew would become one of the victims. We do not know where the process will stop. I assure the Minister that we shall watch the process carefully. Moreover, we shall attempt to persuade the Committee debating the Local Government and Planning (Scotland) Bill to introduce amendments to help to ward off some of the evils which will result from this innovation.

The hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Pollock), in a typically loyal speech, alleged that the Secretary of State has shown a capacity for making a flexible and humane response to the problem of his local authority. If a flexible and humane response was shown, the hon. Member was right to draw it to the attention of the House. It is worthy of note, because it is a very rare and exceptional event. My own feeling, which I think will be echoed by every council house tenant in Scotland, is that all they have seen is higher rents and deteriorating services. That is the dreary formula that the Conservative Government have meant for thousands of people who live in public sector housing in Scotland.

The order will be condemned by local government, because it has lost confidence in the Minister in charge of it. It will also be condemned by the construction industry, which sees that many more skilled jobs will be tragically lost as a result of the cuts. In addition, the order will certainly be condemned by tenants, who rightly see that modernisation will be postponed, repairs delayed and that their houses will deteriorate because of the Government's indifference to the needs of the community. This is a sad and sorry business.

When the Secretary of State introduced this major order, he spoke for only about 10 minutes. He made no attempt to defend the order; and perhaps we should not regret that. Perhaps it does not matter. The feeling among the Opposition—which is no doubt echoed throughout Scotland—is that there can be no defence of the Government's miserable and inadequate housing policies.

10.20 pm
The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind)

The emotion that the Opposition always display on housing debates is such that we have even witnessed the new experience of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. McKelvey) predicting revolution and an Army take-over of local authorities. Such were his comments, that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie) began to look like an elder statesman.

The hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) said that local authorities stood to lose their capital allocations because of their inadequate receipts from the sale of council houses. However, if the hon. Gentleman cares to listen to the answer to his point, he will realise that there were discussions with every local authority about the likely receipts. In all but two cases—Aberdeen and Midlothian—agreement was reached about the likely receipts. Therefore, if those receipts are not obtained, the local authority must have deliberately delayed its sales procedures. If local authorities do not delay, they will have nothing to fear because the figures were agreed with them.

The right hon. Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) said that there had been a significant drop in building in Scotland. However, he forgot to mention that that began under a Labour Government and as a result of his Green Paper. He suggested that under the Labour Government local authorities were not refused anything that they wanted in terms of capital expenditure. In the last year of the Labour Government, capital allocations on the housing revenue account block were £277 million compared with bids of £439 million from local authorities. Yet again we discover that when the right hon. Gentleman is in Opposition he conveniently forgets that he was not a provider of bountiful largesse.

Both the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Garscadden raised the question of expenditure on housing as a result of the recent severe weather. However, neither the hon. Gentleman nor his right hon. Friend answered the Secretary of State's point. They seem to suggest that those local authorities that did not take out insurance, although they knew that if they did not they would not be reimbursed, should nevertheless be reimbursed. My right hon. Friend asked the right hon. Member for Craigton whether the Government should tell those local authorities that took out insurance and accepted the right hon. Gentleman's advice and that of the Labour Government that they will have their premiums returned, and that they should be treated in exactly the same way as those local authorities that rejected the Labour Government's advice.

The Labour Government not only advised local authorities to take out insurance but specifically warned them that if they did not do so they would not receive any reimbursement for losses arising. The Labour Government issued that advice not only in 1976 but again in 1978. The right hon. Gentleman is aware that that advice was explicit. The Scottish Office will meet officials from Glasgow district council on Friday morning. For the first time, we shall then receive information from Glasgow about its expenditure. We shall want to see whether insurance could have been taken out and, if so, why it was not. Until we have that information, I cannot go any further.

The right hon. Member for Craigton said that only council houses in good areas were being sold. The hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) said that it was impossible to sell flats at the top of multi-storey blocks. He should look at what used to be called "Terror Tower" at Dilton in Edinburgh, a multi-storey council block, every single flat of which has been sold and is lived in by owner-occupiers. If he thinks that that is an exception to the rule, he should look at the policy of Glasgow district council in Easterhouse, an area with one of the worst problems of urban deprivation in Britain. Houses in Glenell Quadrant, which even tenants would not take, have been sold to owner-occupiers. Each one of them is now occupied and fully utilised.

Mr. Millan

The hon. Gentleman knows—he is again misleading the House—that in all our constituencies it is preponderantly the best houses in the best areas that are being sold.

Mr. Rifkind

The right hon. Gentleman does not seem to appreciate that the people who have bought the houses in Easterhouse or in Martello Court have bought at the full market value. The tenants of similar houses could buy them at a major discount. Therefore, if people are prepared to buy them without any discount being offered, it is not unreasonable to assume that if the tenants were aware of the opportunity available to them they, too, would seek to purchase.

Mr. Millan

I am not interested in what they can or cannot do. I am telling the hon. Gentleman what is happening in practice, and he cannot deny that.

Mr. Rifkind

My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Mr. Henderson) pointed to the example of a Labour-controlled authority in Kirkcaldy which had advised him that there was no pattern in the sales of houses, and that houses were being sold all over—

Mr. Hugh D. Brown

The hon. Gentleman has referred quite rightly to Easterhouse, which is in my constituency. He is misleading the House, because the houses that have been offered for sale are offered in special circumstances called "homesteading". Would he care to tell me how many of the other 10,000 houses have been inquired after?

Mr. Rifkind

So successful was the district council—[Interruption.] I am praising Glasgow district council. I should have thought that hon. Members would like to hear it. So successful was its first scheme in Glenell Quadrant in Easterhouse that the local authority has now launched an additional scheme which it believes will be as successful.

I firmly believe—and the experience of Kirkcaldy proves it—that when tenants are aware of the benefits from the ownership of their homes, irrespective of the area concerned, they realise it is in their interests to purchase. I am delighted that it is happening in Kirkcaldy, and I am aware that it is happeneing in other areas of Scotland.

Mr. Hugh D. Brown

Surely the Minister can do better than that. I asked him specifically how many of th 10,000 council houses in Easterhouse are being sought after for sale, as distinct from some unique arrangement.

Mr. Rifkind

I have no doubt that there are only very few at the moment. [Interruption.] I have not suggested otherwise. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh".] What I said was that if the houses in question in Easterhouse—some of the least attractive houses in the hon. Gentleman's constituency—are sufficiently attractive to homesteaders to purchase without the benefit of a discount, it must be equally to the benefit of tenants in those areas and elsewhere, who would have the benefit of up to 50 per cent. discount, to take the same action. That is what is happening in Kirkcaldy and other areas as well.

My hon. Friend the Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Pollock) thanked the Scottish Office for the response it has made to the problems not just of Moray and Nairn but of a significant number of other authorities which have benefited as a result of certain calculations on the "other incomes" category of expenditure which were revised.

The hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) asked about the particular problem of Renfrew district council and the fact that it no longer receives housing support grant. The hon. Member must appreciate that the reason is straightforward. The payment of housing support grant to any authority is based on its income and expenditure and whether the one exceeds the other. As Renfrew district council has the fourth lowest loan charges of any local authority in Scotland, the interest that it has to pay on its previous capital projects is so low compared to the Scottish average that that has taken it out of entitlement to housing support grant. The hon. Gentleman himself said that that was a factor. Exactly the same formula has applied to every local authority, and in the case of Renfrew and several other authorities that is what has led to that outcome. The hon. Gentleman should be pleased that the loan charges of his local authority are so low. It is an objective which most local authorities would be happy to aspire to.

Mr. Buchan

The hon. Gentleman has totally misunderstood the situation. I made the point clear. We know the reasons for it. I gave him the figures for it. What I said was that he should stop looking at that sum and look at the needs of the situation. The charges are low because we have an old stock of housing and therefore a tremendously high current expenditure. In other words, he has failed to analyse the figures and give us a just settlement.

Mr. Rifkind

In terms of the needs of Renfrew district council, that is reflected in its capital allocation, which I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman is a 32 per cent. increase on its allocation last year. The hon. Gentleman should be content with that, although I know that there is not the slightest chance that he will be.

Mr. Dewar

Could the hon. Gentleman confirm briefly what I understand from CoSLA—that the rate contributions for 46 local authorities were not done by some form of deduction from last year's RFC but on a per capita basis as in previous years?

Mr. Rifkind

I have already said to the hon. Gentleman in Standing Committee that if we had applied a standard reduction on the rate fund contribution to all local authorities the effect would have been that local authorities which last year met the Government's target would nevertheless be expected to make a. further reduction, which would have been grossly unfair and resented by them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East raised the question of the average earnings. His comments were received with a great deal of suspicion by Opposition Members. My hon. Friend's sources are correct because they are the statistics of the Department of Employment. They are the same statistics as those which have been offered by successive Governments over the last few years.

We know that the average gross earnings of full-time manual male workers aged 21 and over employed in Scotland in 1981 were £133 per week; in 1982 the estimate is £143. When one compares that with the average weekly rent in Scotland, which is £7.67, that puts the matter properly' in perspective. It is not open to Opposition Members simply to pooh-pooh these figures and say that they do not believe them. They have been calculated on exactly the criteria which successive Governments have applied. They are the gross earnings not of all employees but of full-time manual workers in Scotland aged 21 and over. [Interruption.] Those who are unemployed do not pay the full rent; many of them do not pay any rent at all. Therefore, it is inappropriate to include them.

The House is well aware that 50 per cent. of tenants either do not pay any rent or do not pay the full rent through receiving a rent rebate. We know also that at least—

Mr. Foulkes

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Rifkind

No, I am sorry.

We know also that at least 25 per cent. of council tenants in Scotland have a household income of £9,000 or more per year. In view of figures of that kind, to suggest that the average rent in Scotland of £7.70 per week is excessive or not capable of increase is a gross and cruel misrepresentation which will not carry conviction either in this House or amongst the people of Scotland—

Mr. Foulkes

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Minister to conclude his speech without apologising to the House for misleading the Committee?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill)

The hon. Member well knows that the Minister takes responsibility for his speech.

Mr. Rifkind

I conclude by reminding the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends that this Government were the first to give security of tenure to council tenants, to provide a tenants' charter for council tenants and to do more than any previous Administration to give rights to council tenants in Scotland.

The Labour Party talked about councils' rights and the rights of council tenants. This Government have provided them. We stand with pride in our record and in the order

Question put and agreed to


That the draft Housing Support Grant (Scotland) Variations Order 1982, which was laid before this House on 22nd January, be approved.

Motion made, and Question put,

That the draft Housing Support Grant (Scotland) Order 1982, which was laid before this House on 22nd January, be approved:—

The House divided: Ayes 295, Noes 216.

Division No. 65] [10.36 pm
Adley, Robert Blaker, Peter
Aitken, Jonathan Body, Richard
Alexander, Richard Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Boscawen, Hon Robert
Ancram, Michael Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)
Arnold, Tom Bowden, Andrew
Aspinwall, Jack Boyson, Dr Rhodes
Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne) Braine, Sir Bernard
Aikins, Robert(PrestonN) Bright, Graham
Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) Brinton, Tim
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Brown, Michael (Brigg&Sc'n)
Bell, Sir Ronald Browne, John(Winchester)
Bendall, Vivian Bruce-Gardyne, John
Bennett, SirFrederic (T'bay) Bryan, Sir Paul
Benyon, Thomas (A'don) Buck, Antony
Benyon, W, (Buckingham) Budgen, Nick
Best, Keith Bulmer, Esmond
Bevan, DavidGilroy Burden, SirFrederick
Biffen, Rt Hon John Butcher, John
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Cadbury, Jocelyn
Blackburn, John Carlisle, John (Luton West)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Holland, Philip (Canton)
Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) Hooson, Tom
Chalker, Mrs, Lynda Hordern, Peter
Channon, Rt, Hon, Paul Howell, Rt Hon D, (G'ldf'd)
Chapman, Sydney Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)
Clark, Hon A, (Plym'th,S'n) Hunt, David (Wirral)
Clark, Sir W, (Croydon S) Hunt,John(Ravensbourne)
Clarke, Kenneth(Rushcliffe) Hurd, Hon Douglas
Clegg, Sir Walter Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Cockeram, Eric Jessel, Toby
Colvin, Michael Johnson Smith, Geoffrey
Cope, John Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Corrie, John Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith
Costain, Sir Albert Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Cranborne, Viscount Kershaw, Sir Anthony
Critchley, Julian King, Rt Hon Tom
Dean, Paul (North Somerset) Kitson, Sir Timothy
Dickens, Geoffrey Knight, MrsJill
Dorrell, Stephen Knox, David
Douglas-Hamilton, LordJ, Lamont, Norman
Dover, Denshore Lang, Ian
du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Langford-Holt, Sir John
Dunn, Robert(Dartford) Latham, Michael
Durant, Tony Lawrence, Ivan
Dykes, Hugh Lee, John
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John LeMarchant, Spencer
Edwards, Rt Hon N, (P'broke) Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Eggar, Tim Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Emery, Sir Peter Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Eyre, Reginald Lloyd, Ian (Havant&W'loo)
Fairgrieve, Sir Russell Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Faith, Mrs Sheila Loveridge, John
Farr, John Luce, Richard
Fell, Sir Anthony Lyell, Nicholas
Fenner, Mrs Peggy McCrindle, Robert
Finsberg, Geoffrey Macfarlane, Neil
Fisher, SirNigel MacKay, John (Argyll)
Fletcher, A.(Ed'nb'gh N) Macmillan, Rt Hon M.
Fletcher-Cooke, SirCharles McNair-Wilson,M.(N'bury)
Fookes, Miss Janet McNair-Wilson, P.(NewF'st)
Forman, Nigel McQuarrie, Albert
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Madel, David
Fox, Marcus Major, John
Fraser, Peter (South Angus) Marland, Paul
Fry, Peter Marlow, Antony
Gardiner, George(Reigate) Marshall, Micheal(Arundel)
Gardner, Edward (SFylde) Marten, Rt Hon Neil
Garel-Jones, Tristan Mates, Michael
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus
Glyn, Dr Alan Mawby, Ray
Goodhart, SirPhilip Maxwell-Hyslop,Robin
Goodhew, SirVictor Mayhew, Patrick
Goodlad, Alastair Mellor, David
Gorst, John Meyer, Sir Anthony
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Miller, Hal(B'grove)
Gray, Hamish Mills, Iain(Meriden)
Greenway, Harry Mills, Peter (West Devon)
Grieve, Percy Moate, Roger
Griffiths, E, (B'ySt, Edm'ds) Monro, SirHector
Griffiths, PeterPortsm'thN) Moore, John
Grist, Ian Morgan, Geraint
Grylls, Michael Morris, M.(N'hamptonS
Gummer, John Selwyn Morrison, Hon C.(Devizes)
Hamilton, Hon A. Morrison, Hon P.(Chester)
Hamilton, Michael(Salisbury) Mudd, David
Hampson, Dr Keith Murphy, Christopher
Hannam, John Myles, David
Haselhurst, Alan Neale, Gerrard
Hastings, Stephen Needham, Richard
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Nelson, Anthony
Hawkins, Paul Neubert, Michael
Hawksley, Warren Newton, Tony
Hayhoe, Barney Normanton, Tom
Heath, Rt Hon Edward Nott, Rt Hon John
Heddle, John Onslow, Cranley
Henderson, Barry Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S,
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Osborn, John
Hicks, Robert Page, John (Harrow, West)
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L, Page, Richard (SW Herts)
Hogg, Hon Douglas(Gr'th'm) Parris, Matthew
Patten, Christopher(Bath) Steen, Anthony
Patten, John(Oxford) Stevens, Martin
Pattie, Geoffrey Stewart, A(ERenfrewshire)
Pawsey, James Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Percival, Sir Ian Stokes, John
Pink, R, Bonner Stradling Thomas, J,
Pollock, Alexander Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Porter, Barry Temple-Morris, Peter
Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) Thompson, Donald
Prior, Rt Hon James Thome, Neil (IlfordSouth)
Proctor, K, Harvey Thornton, Malcolm
Pym, Rt Hon Francis Townend, John(Bridlington)
Raison, Timothy Townsend, CyrilD, (B'heath)
Rathbone, Tim Trippier, David
Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) Trotter, Neville
Rees-Davies, W, R, van Straubenzee, Sir W,
Renton, Tim Vaughan, DrGerard
Rhodes James, Robert Viggers, Peter
RhysWilliams, SirBrandon Waddington, David
Ridley, Hon Nicholas Wakeham, John
Ridsdale, Sir Julian Waldegrave, Hon William
Rifkind, Malcolm Walker, Rt Hon P, (W'cester)
Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey Walker, B.(Perth)
Roberts, M.(Cardiff NW) Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.
Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Wall, Sir Patrick
Rossi, Hugh Walters, Dennis
Rost, Peter Ward, John
Royle, Sir Anthony Warren, Kenneth
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Watson, John
Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) Wells, Bowen
Shelton, William (Streatham) Wells, John(Maidstone)
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Wheeler, John
Shepherd, Richard Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Shersby, Michael Whitney, Raymond
Silvester, Fred Wickenden, Keith
Sims, Roger Wiggin, Jerry
Smith, Dudley Wilkinson, John
Speller, Tony Williams, D.(Montgomery)
Spence, John Winterton, Nicholas
Spicer, Jim (WestDorset) Wolfson, Mark
Spicer, Michael (SWorcs) Young, SirGeorge (Acton)
Sproat, Iain Younger, Rt Hon George
Squire, Robin
Stainton, Keith Tellers for the Ayes:
Stanbrook, Ivor Mr. Anthony Berry and
Stanley, John Mr. Carol Mather,
Abse, Leo Cohen, Stanley
Adams, Allen Coleman, Donald
Allaun, Frank Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.
Alton, David Cook, Robin F,
Anderson, Donald Cowans, Harry
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Craigen,J. M. (G'gow,M'hill)
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Crawshaw, Richard
Ashton, Joe Crowther, Stan
Atkinson, N. (H'gey,) Cryer, Bob
Bagier, GordonA, T. Cunliffe, Lawrence
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Cunningham, Dr J.(W'h'n)
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) Dalyell, Tam
Beith,A, J. Davidson, Arthur
Bennett, Andrew(St'kp'tN) Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)
Bidwell, Sydney Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Deakins, Eric
Bray, Dr Jeremy Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)
Brown, Hugh D.(Provan) Dewar, Donald
Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) Dixon, Donald
Browr, Ron(E'burgh,Leith) Dobson, Frank
Buchan, Norman Dormand, Jack
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. Douglas, Dick
Callaghan, Jim(Midd't'n&P) Dubs, Alfred
Campbell, Ian Dunnett, Jack
Campbell-Savours,Dale Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.
Canavan, Dennis Eadie, Alex
Carmichael, Neil Eastham, Ken
Carter-Jones, Lewis Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E)
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Ellis, R. (NED'bysh're)
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) English, Michael
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Mikardo, Ian
Evans, John (Newton) Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Ewing, Harry Miller, Dr M, S. (EKilbride)
Faulds, Andrew Mitchell, Austin(Grimsby
Field,Frank Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Fitch, Alan Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)
Flannery, Martin Morton, George
Fletcher, Ted(Darlington) Moyle, Rt Hon Roland
Ford, Ben Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick
Forrester, John Newens, Stanley
Foster, Derek Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Foulkes, George O'Halloran, Michael
Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd) O'Neill, Martin
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Garrett, John (NorwichS) Palmer, Arthur
George, Bruce Park, George
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Parker, John
Golding, John Parry, Robert
Graham, Ted Pavitt, Laurie
Grant, George (Morpeth) Penhaligon, David
Grant, John (IslingtonC) Pitt, William Henry
Grimond, Rt Hon J. Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Hamilton, James(Bothwell) Price, C. (Lewisham W)
Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) Race, Reg
Hardy, Peter Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Richardson, Jo
Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith Roberts, Allan(Bootle)
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Healey, Rt Hon Denis Robertson, George
Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire) Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)
HomeRobertson, John Rooker, J. W.
Homewood, William Roper, John
Hooley, Frank Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Howell, Rt Hon D, Rowlands, Ted
Howells, Geraint Sever, John
Hoyle, Douglas Sheerman, Barry
Huckfield, Les Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
Hughes, Mark(Durham) Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)
Janner, Hon Greville Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Silverman, Julius
John, Brynmor Skinner, Dennis
Johnson, James (Hull West) Soley, Clive
Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Spearing, Nigel
Johnston, Russel(Inverness) Spriggs, Leslie
Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda) Stallard, A. W.
Jones, Barry (East Flint) Steel, Rt Hon David
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Stoddart, David
Kerr, Russell Stott, Roger
Kilroy-Silk, Robert Strang, Gavin
Lambie, David Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Lamborn, Harry Tilley, John
Lamond, James Tinn, James
Leadbitter, Ted Torney, Tom
Leighton, Ronald Urwin, Rt Hon Tom
Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G,
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Wainwright, E. (DearneV)
Litherland, Robert Walker, Rt Hon H, (D'caster)
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Watkins, David
Lyon, Alexander(York) Weetch, Ken
Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W) Welsh, Michael
McDonald, DrOonagh White, Frank R,
McElhone, Frank White, J, (G'gow Pollok)
McGuire, Michael(Ince) Whitehead, Phillip
McKay, Allen(Penistone) Whitlock, William
McKelvey, William Wi1ley, Rt Hon Frederick
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Williams, Rt Hon A, (S'sea W)
Maclennan, Robert Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
McNally, Thomas Wilson, William (C'try SE)
McNamara, Kevin Winnick, David
McTaggart, Robert Woodall, Alec
McWilliam, John Woolmer, Kenneth
Marks, Kenneth Wright, Sheila
Marshall, D(G'gowS'ton) Young, David (BoltonE)
Marshall, DrEdmund (Goole)
Maxton, John Tellers for the Noes:
Maynard, MissJoan Mr. Hugh McCartney and
Meacher, Michael Mr. Frank Haynes.

Question accordingly agreed to.