HC Deb 09 February 1982 vol 17 cc859-64 3.31 pm
Mr. Douglas Jay (Battersea, North)

I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to clarify the meaning of the Transport (London) Act 1969 by providing for the Greater London Council power to make grants towards the current expenses of the London Transport Executive where such grants appear to the Council to be required to provide or secure the provision of such public passenger transport services as best meet the needs for the time being of Greater London; to provide that such grants shall be treated as revenue of the Executive; and for connected purposes.

The Bill is intended to end the confusion caused by the recent Lords judgment and to restore to the law the meaning which everyone believed it had before that judgment.

I am assuming today that the Law Lords were correct in their reading of the present Act, although anyone who studies the admirable speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham) in the debate on 23 December may doubt that and conclude that the Act is at least highly ambiguous.

It is, of course, the judges' duty to interpret the law. It is our duty to enact the law and to amend it. If the 1969 Act means what the Lords say it means, that law must be amended and clarified.

The Lords quite properly did not indulge in any study of transport economics. As a result of the combined efforts of Parliament and the Lords, a legal obligation has been imposed on the London Transport Executive which is economically impossible to carry out. Virtually no transport undertaking in any great city of the world can cover all its costs out of revenue, largely because the development of the motor car has congested city streets and diverted a large amount of custom from public transport. All the figures prove that.

Before the recent cut in fares, about 75 per cent. of London Transport costs were covered by revenue from fares. After the cuts, the figure was 54 per cent. In Berlin only 39 per cent. of costs are covered by fares, in Paris 44 per cent., in New York 55 per cent., and in Brussels only 30 per cent. If we fly in the face of economic reality and try to force London Transport to do something which is commercially impossible, considerable damage will be done to the undertaking, to Londoners, and to the economy of London generally.

In Sir Peter Masefield's own words, in a letter to The Times, we shall seriously undermine the standards of public transport in London. The closure of services and the doubling of fares will prevent many people from travelling to work. The chairman of London Transport apparently will be breaking the law, whether or not he raises fares. The Lords' judgment rested mainly on section 7(3) which requires the executive to balance expenses with revenue so far as is practicable. This was held by the Lords to qualify section 3 of the Act which says that the Council"—— that is, the Greater London Council—— shall have power to make grants to the Executive for any purpose Many people took that to mean exactly what it says.

My Bill makes it clear, first, that the grants that the council can provide include grants towards the current costs of London Transport and, secondly, that such grants can be counted as revenue before current revenue is balanced against current expenditure. This would, in effect, transfer decisions on the economic policy of London Transport from the courts to the electors of London where they should reside.

The then Minister of Transport, introducing the Bill on 17 December 1968, said The basic purpose of the Bill is to place the main responsibilities for transport in London where, in my view, they belong—with the people of London, through their elected representatives on the Greater London Council. The present Prime Minister, then speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, said in reply: I do not think anyone will quarrel with the main purpose".— [Official Report, 17 December 1968, Vol. 775, c. 1244, 1255.] It is that purpose that my Bill seeks to carry out. The national budget, I believe, here as in the United States, must contribute something towards the cost of London Transport. I cannot, however, include that in my Bill because I am advised that it would technically impose a charge. I do not pretend that the Bill is perfectly drafted. If the Minister will take it over and let the professional draftsmen do better, I shall be delighted. I have great respect for the professional draftsmen if only because I can never understand what they write.

I hope at least that the Minister will recognise that this is a highly serious economic issue affecting 10 million people or more, that some early legislation is essential and that it must be treated as such an issue and not simply regarded as a subject for juvenile party political slogans. Almost the entire press, from The Times to The Standard, and the chairman of London Transport agree that new legislation is necessary. In that spirit, I hope that the House will agree that the Bill should at least go forward for further debate.

3.37 pm
Mr. Neil Thorne (Ilford, South)

I wish to oppose the Bill. One cannot fail to be impressed by the manner in which the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) presented his case, but I am afraid that his speech gives only one side of the story. Up to May last year, London Transport had been managed in a sound and forward-looking way by both parties that had had responsibility for it since 1969. It was receiving subsidies of£250 million from taxpayers in one form or another. No one can deny that London receives a satisfactory share of subsidy in this country amounting to no less than 40 per cent. of the total transport supplementary grant paid last year.

On top of this, there is the free gift of the entire undertaking to the Greater London Council by the Government in 1969. There was absolutely no charge for buses, trains, offices, stations, lines, plant, machinery and fixtures and fittings. The Secretary of State of the day was pleased to lose this responsibility and agreed the terms laid down by the Greater London Council. Certainly, at that time, the GLC had no wish to acquire an expensive albatross around its neck that would have to be passed on to the ratepayers. In the event, it did not. It was in that light that the Transport (London) Act 1969 was passed. Therefore, it comes as no surprise to me that the Lords ruling was given as it was because the parties involved in the negotiations in 1968—I was there—certainly did not envisage a revolutionary system of a Livingstone type or any other form.

To hear some speak now, one might conclude that public transport in this country is dealt with in a shameful way, compared with other countries. The latest figures available for a broad spread are for 1976. In Sweden, the government gave 0.32 per cent. of gross national product to subsidise its transport system. In Belgium and the Netherlands, the figure was 0.25 per cent.; France 0.21 per cent.; Norway, 0.2 per cent., which is an estimate because the latest figure is for the previous year; Ireland, 0.14 per cent.; Finland, 0.13 per cent.; Canada and Switzerland, 0.12 per cent.; United States, 0.11 per cent.; Greece, 0.06 per cent., and Spain, 0.04 per cent.

The United Kingdom is second, with a 0.25 per cent. subsidy. Against this background, we find today a belligerent GLC led by a man who has by his actions brought matters near to chaos. He has been assured that if he goes back to the pre-May 1981 position, should there be any doubt about the law, the Government will do their best to help with the necessary legislation. But this he will not accept because he hopes to advance his cause by chaos. The Government have made clear their determination to protect old people's fare concessions, but where is the GLC's sympathy for old people's rates? They get no extra benefit for profligate local public transport.

The old people do not wish to subsidise tourist travel, nor do they wish to subsidise office rents in central London, which is exactly what is done by giving cheap transport. Nor do they wish to give subsidies to the office workers for the whole of the South-East outside the Greater London area. They do not wish to see suburban industry hammered with extra rate burdens that reduce their ability to employ local school leavers. Like most taxpayers and ratepayers, they wish to see sound management with capital investment in long-term projects leading to such things as single manning and a more efficient system. This will not be achieved by a return to the previous situation proposed by the Bill. Therefore, I hope that hon. Members will vote against it.

Question put:—

The House divided: Ayes 205, Noes 177.

Division No. 63] [10.00 pm
AYES
Adley.Robert Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul
Aitken, Jonathan Chapman, Sydney
Alexander, Richard Churchill, W.S.
Alison, RtHon Michael Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n)
Amery, RtHon Julian Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Ancram, Michael Clarke, Kenneib(Rushcliffe)
Arnold, Tom Clegg, Sir Walter
Aspinwall, Jack Cockeram, Eric
Atkins, RtHon H.(S'thorne Colvin, Michael
Atkins, Robert (PPrestonN) Cope, John
Atkinson, David Cormack, Patrick
Baker, Kenneth(St.M'bone) Corrie, John
Baker, Nicholas (NDorset) Costain, SirAlbert
Beaumont-Dark.Anthony Cranborne, Viscount
Bell, SirRonald Critchley, Julian
Bendall, Vivian Crouch, David
Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) Dean, Paul (NorthSomerset)
Benyon,Thomas(A'don) Dickens, Geoffrey
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Dorrell, Stephen
Best, Keith Douglas-Hamilton, LordJ.
Bevan, David Gilroy Dover, Denshore
Biffen, RtHon John du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Biggs-Davison.SirJohn Dunn, Roben(Dartford)
Blackburn, John Durant, Tony
Body, Richard Dykes, Hugh
Bonsor, SirNlcholas Eden, RtHon Sir John
Boscawen, HonRobert Eggar, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) Elliott, SlrWilliam
Bowden, Andrew Eyre, Reginald
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Fairgrieve, SirRussell
Braine, SirBernard Faith, MrsSheila
Bright, Graham Farr, John
Brinton, Tim Fell, SirAnthony
Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon Fenner, Mrs Peggy
Brooke, Hon Peter Finsberg, Geoffrey
Brotherton, Michael Fisher, SirNigel
Brown, Michael (Brigg&Sc'n) Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'ghN)
Browrn B,Jobn(Winchester) Fletcher-Cooke.SirCharles
Bruce-Gardyne,John Fookes, Miss Janet
Buck, Antony Forman, Nigel
Budgen, Nick Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Bulmer, Esmond Fox, Marcus
Burden, SirFrederick Fraser, Peter (SouthAngus)
Butcher, John Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Cadbury, Jocelyn Gardner, Edward (SFylde)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Garel-Jones, Tristan
Carlisle, Rt Hon M.(R'c'n) Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Glyn, DrAlan
Goodhart,SirPhilip Marland,Paul
Goodhew,SirVictor Marlow,Antony
Goodlad,Alastair Marshall, Michael(Arundel)
Gorst,John Marten, Rt Hon Neil
Gow, Ian Mates, Michael
Grant, Anthony (HarrowC) Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus
Gray, Hamish Mawby, Ray
Greenway, Harry Mawhinney, DrBrian
Grieve, Percy Maxwell-Hyslop,Robin
Griffiths, E,(BySt,Edm'ds) Mayhew, Patrick
Griffiths, Peter Portsm’thN) Mellor,David
Grist, Ian Meyer, Sir Anthony
Grylls,Michael Miller, Hal(B'grove)
Gummer, John Selwyn Mills, lain(Meriden)
Hamilton, HonA, Mills, Peter (West Devon)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Miscampbell, Norman
Hampson, DrKeith Moate, Roger
Hannam, John Monro, SirHector
Haselhurst, Alan Montgomery, Fergus
Hastings, Stephen Moore, John
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Morgan, Geraint
Hawkins, Paul Morris, M. (N'hamptonS)
Hawksley, Warren Morrison, Hon C.(Devizes)
Hayhoe, Barney Morrison, Hon P.(Chester)
Heath, Rt Hon Edward Mudd, David
Heddle, John Murphy, Christopher
Henderson, Barry Myles, David
Heseltine, RtHonMichael Neale, Gerrard
Hicks, Robert Needham, Richard
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L, Nelson, Anthony
Hogg, HonDouglas(Gr'th'm) Neubert, Michael
Holland, Philip(Carlton) Newton, Tony
Hooson, Tom Normanton, Tom
Hordern, Peter Nott, Rt Hon John
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Onslow, Cranley
Howell, Rt Hon D.(G'ldf'd) Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.
Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) Osborn, John
Hunt, David(Wirral) Page, John (Harrow, West)
Hunt, John(Ravensbourne) Page, Richard (SW Herts)
Hurd, HonDouglas Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil
Irving, Charles(Cheltenham) Parris, Matthew
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Patten, Christopher(Bath)
Jessel, Toby Pattie, Geoffrey
JohnsonSmith, Geoffrey Pawsey, James
Jopling, RtHonMichael Percival, Sirlan
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Pink, R.Bonner
Kaberry, SirDonald Pollock, Alexander
Kellett-Bowman.MrsElaine Porter, Barry
Kershaw, SirAnthony Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Kimball, SirMarcus Prior, Rt Hon James
King, Rt Hon Tom Proctor, K. Harvey
Kitson, SirTimothy Pym, RtHon Francis
Knight, MrsJill Raison, Timothy
Knox, David Rathbone, Tim
Lamont, Norman Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)
Lang, Ian Rees-Davies, W. R.
Langford-Holt, SirJohn Renton, Tim
Latham, Michael Rhodes James, Robert
Lawrence, Ivan RhysWilliams.SirBrandon
Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel Ridley, HonNicholas
Lee, John Ridsdale, SirJulian
LeMarchant, Spencer Rifkind, Malcolm
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Rippon, RtHon Geoffrey
Lester, Jim (Beeston) Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Lloyd, Ian (Havant& W'loo) Rossi, Hugh
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Rost, Peter
Loveridge, John Royle, Sir Anthony
Luce,Richard Sainsbury, HonTimothy
Lyell, Nicholas St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.
McCrindle, Robert Scott, Nicholas
Macfarlane, Neil Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
MacGregor, John Shaw,Michael(Scarborough)
MacKay, John (Argyll) Shelton, William(Streatham)
Macmillan, RtHonM. Shepherd, Colin(Hereford)
McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) Shepherd,Richard
McNair-Wilson, P. (NewF'st) Shersby, Michael
McQuarrie, Albert Silvester, Fred
Madel, David Sims, Roger
Major, John Skeet, T. H. H.
Smith, Dudley Vaughan, DrGerard
Speed, Keith Viggers, Peter
Speller, Tony Waddington, David
Spence, John Wakeham, John
Spicer, Jim (WestDorset) Waldegrave, HonWilliam
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Walker, Rt Hon P.(W'cester)
Sproat, lain Walker, B.(Perth)
Squire, Robin Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.
Stainton, Keith Wall, SirPatrick
Stanbrook, lvor Waller, Gary
Stanley, John Walters, Dennis
Steen, Anthony Ward, John
Stevens, Martin Warren, Kenneth
Stewart, A. (ERenfrewshire) Watson, John
Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) Wells, Bowen
Stokes, John Wells, John(Maidstone)
Stradling Thomas, J. Wheeler, John
Tapsell, Peter Whitelaw, RtHonWilliam
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) Whitney, Raymond
Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman Wickenden, Keith
Temple-Morris,Peter Wiggin, Jerry
Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. Wilkinson, John
Thomas, Rt Hon Peter Williams, D.(Montgomery)
Thompson, Donald Winterton, Nicholas
Thorne, Neil (llford South) Wolfson, Mark
Thornton, Malcolm Young, SirGeorge(Acton)
Townend, John (Bridlington) Younger, Rt Hon George
Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)
Trippier, David Tellers for the Ayes:
Trotter, Neville Mr. Anthony Berry and
van Straubenzee, Sir W. Mr. Carol Mather.
NOES
Abse, Leo Davidson, Arthur
Adams, Allen Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)
Allaun, Frank Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Alton, David Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)
Anderson, Donald Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Deakins, Eric
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)
Ashton, Joe Dewar, Donald
Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) Dixon, Donald
Bagier, GordonA.T. Dobson, Frank
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Dormand, Jack
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) Douglas, Dick
Beith, A.J. Douglas-Mann,Bruce
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Dubs,Alfred
Bennett.Andrew(St'kp'tN) Duffy, A. E. P.
Bidwell.Sydney Dunnett.Jack
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.
Bottomley,RtHonA.(M'b'ro Eadie.Alex
Bradley,Tom Eastham.Ken
Brocklebank-Fowler.C. Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Ellis, R.(NED'bysh're)
Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) Ellis,Tom (Wrexham)
Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'yS) English,Michael
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) Ennals, Rt Hon David
Buchan,Norman Evans, loan (Aberdare)
Callaghan, RtHonJ. Evans, John (Newton)
Callaghan,Jim(Midd't'n&P Ewing,Harry
Campbell,Ian Faulds,Andrew
Campbell-Savours.Dale Field,Frank
Canavan,Dennis Flannery, Martin
Cant, R. B. Fletcher, L. R. (llkeston)
Carmichael.Neil Fletcher.Ted (Darlington)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Cartwright.John Ford, Ben
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Forrester.John
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) Foster, Derek
Cohen,Stanley Foulkes.George
Coleman, Donald Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Freeson.Rt Hon Reginald
Cook, Robin F. Freud.Clement
Cowans, Harry Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)
Crawshaw.Richard George,Bruce
Crowther.Stan Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Cryer.Bob Ginsburg, David
Cunningham, G.(lslington S) Golding.John
Cunningham, DrJ. (W'h'n) Graham, Ted
Grant, George (Morpeth) Orme, RtHon Stanley
Grant, John (IslingtonC) Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Hamilton, James(Bothwell) Palmer, Arthur
Hamilton, W. W.(C'tral Fife) Park, George
Hardy, Peter Parker.John
Harrison, RtHon Walter Parry.Robert
Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith Pavitt, Laurie
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Pendry.Tom
Healey, Rt Hon Denis Penhaligon, David
Heffer, EricS. Powell.Raymond(Ogmore)
Hogg, N.(EDunb't'nshire) Price, C.(Lewisham W)
HomeRobertson.John Race, Reg
Homewood.William Radice,Giles
Hooley.Frank Rees, Rt Hon M(Leeds S)
Howell, RtHon D. Richardson,Jo
Howells.Geraint Roberts.Albert(Normanton)
Hoyle,Douglas Roberts,Allan(Bootle)
Huckfield.Les Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Hughes.Mark(Durham) Roberts,Gwilym(Cannock)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Rooker.J.W.
Janner.HonGreville Roper.John
Jay, RtHon Douglas Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Johnson, James (Hull West) Ryman.John
Johnson, Walter (DerbyS) Sandelson, Neville
Jones, Barry (East Flint) Sever, John
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Sheerman,Barry
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Sheldon, RtHon R.
Kerr, Russell Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Kilroy-Silk, Robert Short, Mrs Renée
Kinnock.Neil Silkin, RtHon J. (Deptford)
Lambie.David Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Lamborn,Harry Silverman,Julius
Lamond,James Skinner.Dennis
Leadbitter.Ted Snape, Peter
Leighton,Ronald Soley.Clive
Lestor, Miss Joan Spearing,Nigel
Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) Spriggs, Leslie
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Stallard, A. W.
Litherland, Robert Steel, Rt Hon David
Lofthouse,Geoffrey Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)
Lyon,Alexander(York Stoddart,David
Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W) Stott, Roger
Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Strang,Gavin
McCartney,Hugh Summerskill, HonDrShirley
McDonald,DrOonagh Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
McElhone,Frank Thomas, DrR, (Carmarthen)
McGuire,Michael(Ince) Thorne, Stan (PrestonSouth)
McKay,Allen(Penistone) Tilley.John
McKelvey.William Tinn,James
MacKenzie.RtHonGregor Torney.Tom
McNally,Thomas Urwin.RtHonTom
McNamara.Kevin Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
McTaggart, Robert Wainwright, E.(DearneV)
McWilliamJohn Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster)
Marks,Kenneth Watkins, David
Marshall, D(G'gowS'ton) Weetch, Ken
Marshall, DrEdmund (Goole) Wellbeloved,James
Marshall, Jim (LeicesterS) Welsh,Michael
Martin,M(G'gowS'burn) White, Frank R.
Mason, Rt Hon Roy White, J.(G'gow Pollok)
Maxton.John Whitehead, Phillip
Maynard, Miss Joan Whitlock.William
Meacher,Michael Wigley.Dafydd
Mellish, RtHon Robert Willey, RtHon Frederick
Mikardo.lan Williams, RtHon A.(S'sea W)
Millan, RtHon Bruce Williams, Rt Hon Mrs (Crosby)
Miller, Dr M.S. (EKilbride) Wilson, Gordon (DundeeE)
Mitchell, Austin(Grimsby) Wilson, William (C'trySE)
Mitchell, R.C. (Soton Itchen) Winnick, David
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) Woodall.Alec
Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) Woolmer.Kenneth
Morton,George Wright.Sheila
Moyle, Rt Hon Roland Young, David (Bolton E)
Mu Hey, Rt Hon Frederick
Newens, Stanley Tellers for the Noes:
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Mr. Lawrence Cunliffe and
O'Neill,Martin Mr. Frank Haynes.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Douglas Jay, Mr. A. W. Stallard, Mr. Nigel Spearing, Mr. Alfred Dubs,Mr. Frank Dobs on and Mr. Thomas Cox.

TRANSPORT (LONDON) ACT 1969 (AMENDMENT)

Mr. Douglas Jay accordingly presented a Bill to clarify the meaning of the Transport (London) Act 1969 by providing for the Greater London Council power to makegrants towards the current expenses of the London Transport Executive where such grants appear to the Council to be required to provide or secure the provision of such public passenger transport services as best meet the needs for the time being of Greater London; to provide that such grants shall be treated as revenue of the Executive; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 19 February and to be printed. [Bill 63.]