Poland

HC Deb 03 February 1982 vol 17 cc291-4

7. Mr. Cyril D. Townsend

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on Poland.

9. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will made a statement on the situation in Poland, and the new initiatives now being considered by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation allies to deal with the problem.

10. Mr. Winnick

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement of Government policy in relation to the present situation in Poland.

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Humphrey Atkins)

Her Majesty's Government, together with their European Community partners and NATO allies, have condemned without reserve the massive violation of human and civil rights that has occurred in Poland. We have called upon the Polish leadership to live up to its declared intention to re-establish civil liberties and the process of reform.

Her Majesty's Government believe it is essential that there should be an active and concerted Western response. We and our allies are engaged in close consultations to coordinate specific measures to be adopted against Poland and the Soviet Union in accordance with the general position set out in the NATO declaration of 11 January. As soon as decisions are taken I shall inform the House of the details.

Mr. Townsend

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his reply. Would it not be appropriate for the House to be treated to another full statement, in view of the great international importance of recent events in Poland? Do the Government agree with President Reagan's statement that human rights in Poland have been put back 30 years? Is my right hon. Friend of the view that, despite speculation to the contrary, there has been no real lifting of the military clampdown in Poland?

Mr. Atkins

I have just made a statement in answer to my hon. Friend's question. As circumstances develop, and whenever necessary, I am prepared to come to the House to make another. I would not wish to quarrel with the President of the United States as to whether human rights have been put back 30 years or some other length of time. There is no doubt, as we have repeatedly made clear, that human rights are being seriously violated in Poland

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I propose to call first those hon. Members whose questions are being answered.

Mr. Hamilton

Does the Lord Privy Seal agree that although the whole House would accept and support his condemnation of the denial of civil rights in Poland. that stance would be far more credible if we and the United States did not apply double standards and if the British Government objected to and attacked equally strongly the denial of civil rights in countries such as El Salvador and Turkey? Was any useful purpose served by the Prime Minister appearing in a ridiculous Hollywood film? Was that done with the consent and approval of all our European allies?

Mr. Atkins

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government deplore violations of human rights wherever they occur. We have repeatedly said that with, I thought, the support of the Opposition.

Mr. Cryer

No. The Prime Minister denied that.

Mr. Atkins

If the hon. Gentleman does not support us, that is all right. With regard to the programme, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was asked to give her views about Poland, and she did so.

Mr. Winnick

Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that the plight of the Polish people under martial law and an oppressive Stalinist junta was not helped in any way by the production "Let Poland be Poland" and that in many ways it made a mockery of the tragedy in Poland? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the United States President and the British Prime Minister would speak with far greater authority and credibility about Poland if they did not constantly act as defenders and apologists of vile, oppressive regimes throughout the world, particularly the present regime in El Salvador?

Mr. Atkins

The hon. Gentleman's attack on the Government for supporting vile, oppressive regimes throughout the world deserves no comment from me. The hon. Gentleman knows that it is nonsense. [HON. MEMBERS: "El Salvador".] He knows perfectly well the Government's position on Poland, about which I am answering questions. Whether the programme—which I did not see—shown in America a couple of days ago was helpful or not, the Western world should continue to condemn what is happening in Poland, to press the Polish Government to honour their undertakings and to consider what action it is appropriate to take. That is exactly what is happening.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell

Do the Government not understand that if we pontificate upon the internal affairs of other nations we give them the moral right to pontificate upon ours, and that if we seek to interfere in their management of their own affairs we give them a colourable justification for seeking to interfere in ours? Is that really what the Government want?

Mr. Atkins

If the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that Her Majesty's Government should remain silent about what is happening in Poland, I can only say that I do not agree.

Mr. Whitney

I commend my right hon. Friend's view that there should be a concerted Western response to the events in Poland and the actions of the Soviet Union and that it should be in terms of specific measures. Will he ensure that the West's agreement upon these specific measures is quickly forthcoming?

Mr. Atkins

I agree with my hon. Friend. It is to this end that we have had, and are having even today, discussions with our allies about the most appropriate measures that we can take jointly. I cannot say whether we shall reach conclusions today, but I undertake that we shall press ahead as quickly as we can and that I shall keep the House informed of the conclusions.

Mr. Healey

Has the Lord Privy Seal any information on reports that there may soon be a meeting between the Polish authorities and members of the Solidarity movement, including Mr. Lech Walesa? If those reports prove to be true, that will be an important step towards satisfying a condition that we all feel is necessary before providing new aid to the Polish Government.

As the United States Administration have agreed to the payment of contributions that they were obligated to make to certain American banks which had made loans to Poland, is it now the British Government's policy to reschedule existing Polish debt?

Mr. Atkins

The anwswer to the second of the right hon. Gentleman's questions is "No". We have agreed that the rescheduling of Polish debts should be left in abeyance, and that remains our position.

As to his first question, I do not know whether reports that General Jaruzelski and Mr. Lech Walesa will meet are true, but I hope that they are. One of the conditions that we made for reviewing our position with regard to Poland was that there should be a renewed dialogue between the Polish Government, Solidarity and the Church.

Sir John Biggs-Davison

In helping to relieve distress in Poland, is it not important that supplies should be sent through Church agencies rather than through the Polish Red Cross, which is clearly dominated by the dictatorship?

Mr. Atkins

Yes. As my hon. Friend knows, the Community has decided to use the money set aside for selling food to the Polish Government at a discount to provide humanitarian aid, including food aid. The channels through which it is sent are very important. We are declining to send it to the Polish Government. We believe that the Church can best ensure that the food and humanitarian assistance provided reach the right people. I note what my hon. Friend said about the Red Cross. We are, of course, in touch with the International Red Cross and with other voluntary organisations. The prime purpose is to ensure that the food goes to those who really need it.

Mr. Christopher Price

Does the Lord Privy Seal accept that some people found it ironic that the Foreign Minister of Turkey should take part in the programme "Let Poland be Poland"? May we get the Government's policy straight? Are the Government against the suppression of trade unions in Poland but in favour of the suppression of trade unions in Turkey?

Mr. Atkins

I am happy to say that I do not answer in the House for the activities of the Foreign Minister of Turkey. He must decide what he decides.

The Government's position is perfectly plain, and I believe that it has the support of the majority of Members of the House. Indeed, I should have thought that it was supported by all hon. Members. We are against the kind of repressive activities, including the suppression of trade unions, which the world has seen happening in Poland since 13 December. We shall continue to maintain our opposition and use what efforts we can to ensure that the Polish Government return to the course upon which Poland was embarked before 13 December.