New Clause 12 (Hansard, 3 February 1982)

§ Dr. Summerskill
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Association of County Councils has drawn this new clause to my attention and I understand that representations have been made to the Minister by the council. It concerns the new form of fire alarm system which has been developed since the advent of the silicon chip. For a relatively small sum, somebody can buy an autodialler which, on being activated by a sensor on the premises, automatically dials 999 and transmits a recorded message through the Post Office telephone links to the fire brigade.
This clause will enable the fire authority to be aware of the intention to introduce an automatic system and, therefore, provide an opportunity for that authority to examine the proposal and the message to be transmitted.
There is no agreement with the fire brigade at the moment and no power to enforce penalties for false alarms. It seems a reasonable new clause to be put into the Bill and I should like to hear whether the Minister has any objections to it.

§ Mr. Raison
The Government recognise that-false alarm calls from automatic fire detection systems pose serious problems both for fire brigades and fire authorities. Therefore, we have sympathy with a significant part of the purpose of this new clause.
When the Bill was in course of preparation, we gave very serious thought, in consultation with the local authority associations, to the possibility of including a provision designed to control the installation of autodialler systems linked to fire alarms. Unfortunately, however, our own ideas on the sort of provision required for this purpose differed in important respects from those of the Association of County Councils who, I believe, were responsible for the drafting of this new clause, while the Association of Metropolitan Authorities was not persuaded that the problem of false alarm calls from autodiallers could suitably be dealt with by legislation at all. In the absence of agreement, the Government therefore felt unable to include provision for this purpose in the present Bill.
The difficulty lies in subsection (4)(b). This is designed to give the fire authority power to include in a licence a condition reserving to the fire authority the right to impose a financial penalty, not exceeding £200, if the fire alarm system causes false alarms to be transmitted. In our view, this provision would breach an important principle enshrined in fire service legislation. The principle is set out in section 3(4) of the Fire Services Act 1947, which provides that a fire authority shall not make any charge for fire-fighting services rendered by the authority.
The Act does permit a fire authority to make charges for services rendered where it employs the fire brigade, or any equipment, for purposes other than fire-fighting purposes—for example, pumping out a flooded basement—but fire authorities are under no statutory duty to provide services such as these, whereas they have a direct statutory duty to respond to a fire call, and this duty exists regardless of whether, in the outcome, the call may turn out to have been a false alarm.
In the Government's view, the principle that the fire service should not make a charge, other than through the rates, for carrying out its central duty of fire-fighting is of fundamental importance and should not be breached on this occasion. The last thing any of us wants, I am sure, is occupiers of buildings discouraged from installing 439 equipment designed to protect their property from fire by fears that, if the equipment failed to operate properly, they would be subject to swingeing financial penalties; but that seems to the Government to be precisely the likely effect of the new clause.
There are other objections. Automatic fire detection and alarm systems linked to autodiallers represent only a small proportion of the automatic systems in use. There are technical objections relating to the drafting of the clause, but we do not believe that the problem of false alarms is readily amenable to a legislative solution. However, we attach great importance to the matter and we are concerned that a solution should be found. To this end, we are embarking on a number of valuable initiatives which I hope will make a contribution. We are concerned about the problem, but this is not the right way to tackle it.

Mr. R. C. Mitchell
Although I accept the Minister's argument on subsection 4(b) of the new clause, the Association of County Councils and others are worried, because many of the false alarms that are a nuisance to the fire brigade may be caused by inadequate equipment that has been installed by amateurs. Have the Government thought of a way of supervising the installation of equipment? if someone has such an instrument installed, he should inform the fire brigade or someone with the power to inspect it and to have it put right if it is defective.

§ Mr. Raison
Among the steps that we are taking to try to deal with the problem is a seminar in May, which involves the fire service, equipment manufacturers and other interests. It will take place at the fire service college and will consider that type of point. We are also participating in discussions with manufacturers of fire protection equipment and others about the possibility of establishing a national approvals system for fire protection equipment. We are anxious to find a way to tackle the problem of faulty and inadequate equipment. We take the matter seriously.

Mr. Mitchell
The Minister's remarks have covered the point about inadequate equipment. However, I am worried about faulty installations. The work may be done by cowboys. Can the Government think of any way of having the installation checked by the fire brigade, or someone else?

§ Mr. Raison
The British Standards Institution has recently issued a series of standards relating to automatic fire detection and alarm equipment. Those standards provide, for the first time, authoritative guidance on all aspects of automatic fire detection equipment, installation and maintenance. The British Standards Institution has played a substantial part, over the years, in all sorts of matters. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be reassured to know that we are proceeding in that direction.

§ Dr. Summerskill
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.