§ Ql. Mr. Duffyasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 2 December.
§ The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today.
§ Mr. DuffyHas the Prime Minister noticed that Britain now imports more manufactured goods than it exports? If she thinks that her policy of industrial anorexia is not contributing to that deindustrialisation and to today's horrifying unemployment figures, how does she explain that the crucial factor in this week's savage job cuts in the 392 Sheffield steel industry was not her pet alibi of poor quality, productivity or delivery, but a lack of domestic demand, notably in engineering steel?
§ The Prime MinisterThe hon. Gentleman must have made a mistake in his reference to imports in manufactured goods being more than exports. The monthly figures give imports as cost, insurance and freight, and they give exports as free on board. If one excludes cost, insurance and freight—which come in invisibles—a proper comparison of imports with exports can be made, and if that is done the hon. Gentleman will find that what he said is not so. There is still a surplus of manufacturing exports over imports. The hon. Gentleman has made a common mistake.
The unemployment figures are out today, and unfortunately the underlying trend is upwards. However, there is a deep world recession, which is affecting other countries in Europe and, of course, our industrial competitors further afield.
The hon. Gentleman implied that we need not take any notice of quality and productivity. Of course we must want quality—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman suggested that he did not want another homily on quality and productivity, but both are vital. The hon. Gentleman went on to speak about demand. I point out once again that the import penetration of cars is above 55 per cent. If those cars were made here, we should have the steel trade here. That also applies to many machine tools. The problem is not a shortage of demand, but the fact that people choose to buy foreign goods instead of those produced here.
§ Sir Paul BryanAs the Government are about to come to a decision on overseas students' fees, will my right hon. Friend find time today to press the appropiate Ministers to accept the offer of the Hong Kong Government to share with this Government the cost of giving home student status to Hong Kong students?
§ The Prime MinisterI understand that a scheme has been proposed by the Hong Kong Government, the cost of which would be shared fifty-fifty with this Government, and we are considering it.
§ Dr. OwenIn view of today's NATO Defence Ministers meeting, the considerable public disquiet about cruise missiles and the regrettable position that might arise in December next year if there is no progress at the INF and START talks, will the Prime Minister assure the House that if it were necessary to deploy cruise missiles a system would be adopted similar to that adopted for the Thor missiles, whereby they could never be fired without the physical agreement of representatives of the British Government? Will the Prime Minister assure the House that no decision will be taken in December 1983 on their deployment without a debate in the House?
§ The Prime MinisterWe are already pledged to honour the NATO commitment, and I do not believe that the right hon. Gentleman would wish us to go back on that. He wishes that there were no need to have cruise missiles stationed here. There would indeed be no such need if the Russians dismantled their SS20 systems. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman wishes that as much as we do. Should cruise missiles be stationed here—they will have to be unless the SS20 systems are taken down—the same rules will apply to them as have governed American nuclear weapons here for many years.
§ Mr. NeedhamDoes my right hon. Friend agree that the latest economic proposals of the Labour Party are unattainable and irresponsible? Does she agree also that their only beneficial side effect is further to undermine the credibility of the Labour Party?
§ The Prime MinisterI believe that they are totally irresponsible and dangerous. They would lead to a rapid return of inflation, and that would be followed, once again, by increasing unemployment.
§ Mr. WinnickIs the right hon. Lady aware of the deep resentment that is felt in the West Midlands at the flippant reply given last week by the Secretary of State for Employment over the mounting job crisis in the region? Is she further aware that a reply given to me shows that the highest rate of unemployment before May 1979 was 6½ per cent.? It is now 16½ per cent., and continuing to rise. Is the right hon. Lady proud of the fact that under her Administration the centre of manufacturing and engineering in this country has been brought to such a devastated state?
§ The Prime MinisterWhat I said in answer to the first question is directly relevant to what the hon. Gentleman asks. If there had not been import penetration, or, to put it another way, if our car industry had been more competitive and less strike-ridden and produced goods and cars that were saleable to ordinary people in this country as well as overseas, the West Midlands would be much more prosperous than it is now. Incidentally, in that connection, I congratulate Jaguar on the excellent work that it is doing.
§ Q2. Mr. Tony Spellerasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 2 December.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. SpellerDoes my right hon. Friend agree that over the past 30 years the growth of the hotel and catering industry has provided many permanent jobs for young and unskilled workers? Does it not follow that we would be well advised to apply our grants and aid to a growing service industry rather than give them to the old, outdated and outmoded industries that claim too large a percentage of our national wealth?
§ The Prime MinisterI agree with my hon. Friend that tourism and the hotel and catering industry are extremely important to our economy, and that in future more jobs will come from services. This year the Government spent about £56 million on tourism. We are having a review to see whether that money is being best applied, how best the Government can help tourism and the hotel and catering industry, whether there is too much bureaucracy in handing out that money, and whether we have the best structure for promoting tourism. We are anxious to do all that, because my hon. Friend is right to say that many jobs depend upon it.
§ Mr. David SteelWhy does the Prime Minister continue to ascribe the appalling unemployment figures to the effects of the world recession, when world markets grew last year by 5 per cent. and our manufacturing exports shrank by 4 per cent.?
§ The Prime MinisterThat is because the greater part of the problems are attributable to the world recession. In 394 addition, there are further problems that are specific to this country—the overmanning and restrictive practices throughout the years and the habit and practice of overpaying ourselves, or paying ourselves nearly twice as much for producing the same amount, whereas our competitors' pay and output are much more nearly hand-in-hand. Those facts have made the recession deeper here than in a number of other countries.
§ Mr. Alan ClarkHas my right hon. Friend seen the report, published yesterday, of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, in which, from its unique position of overseeing sentencing policy throughout the kingdom, it is unanimous in condemning excessive leniency in sentencing for crimes of violence? Does she agree that that supplies official confirmatiomn of an anxiety that is widely felt by ordinary people? Judicial and Executive functions cannot overlap, but does my right hon. Friend think it appropriate to draw that report to the attention of the Lord Chancellor?
§ The Prime MinisterI have seen the report, although I am not completely au fait with it. I am sure that the Lord Chancellor will have seen it and read it in full. I share my hon. Friend's concern about remarks in the report, which I believe to be correct, that in certain cases sentences are nothing like severe enough. I share the view of Lord Lane, the Lord Chief Justice, who said that medium or long-term custodial sentences were appropriate for most robberies and most offences involving serious violence.
§ Mr. FootHas the Cabinet had before it today not only the appalling unemployment figures but the evidence of the sheer grinding increase in real poverty? Did she study, for example, the figures that were given to my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk), which showed that the number of people living on supplementary benefit in this country had increased by nearly 1 million during the past three years? Does she blame all that on someone else?
§ The Prime MinisterThe number of people on supplementary benefit has gone up as the threshold for supplementary benefit has risen over the years. [Interruption.] Of course it has. The number of people on supplementary benefit went up under Labour Governments as well. The number has increased from the early years as the level of poverty has been redefined by successive Governments—[Interruption.]—and therefore more people have qualified for supplementary benefit. Having been a Parliamentary Secretary at the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance for many years, I am very well aware of that. Added to that, there is the extra burden on those who are unemployed. The way to get unemployment down is to get industry more competitive—[Interruption.]—but unfortunately the Opposition never understand the truth. The way to get unemployment down is to get industry more competitive and its products better designed, so that those who earn their living in this country will buy the products produced here.
§ Mr. FootIs the right hon. Lady aware that this is a question, not of the redefinition of poverty, but of its intensification? Is she not aware that in the past three years the number of children in families living on supplementary benefit has gone up to nearly 1 million and that the figure has more than doubled during the three years for which she has been responsible? Does she have no shame about these matters?
§ The Prime MinisterAs I said, the numbers have gone up. One of the reasons is increasing unemployment. I have said what I think is the best way to get that down. The supplementary benefit scheme means that those who are unfortunately without work are catered for.
§ Q3. Mr. Christopher Priceasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 2 December.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. PriceWill the Prime Minister spend some time today looking at reports that the European Commission has consistently been defying the Council of Ministers by selling butter to the Soviet Union? That is outside its remit. Is she aware that that process has been going on for some time? Indeed, it happened when the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins), was in charge of the Commission. Does the right hon. Lady agree that the fact 396 that the right hon. Gentleman seemed less than assiduous at his Prayers today shows that he could not organise a harvest festival in a vineyard?
§ The Prime MinisterI heard the allegation to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I do not know whether it is true. The matter is being looked into. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has just told me that butter sales to Russia reached their peak during the last four months of the Labour Government.
§ Mr. WardHas my right hon. Friend had time today to study reports in the newspapers that the Inner London Education Authority is proposing to withdraw grant from the Scout movement because Major General Walsh, the Chief Scout, wants to increase discipline, self-respect and hygiene in that movement?
§ The Prime MinisterAlmost all hon. Members would say that the Scout movement is excellent and that Major General Walsh is a superb leader.