HC Deb 01 December 1982 vol 33 cc258-60
11. Mr. Kenneth Lewis

asked the Secretary of State for Transport whether he is satisfied that the rural areas of the country have a sufficient level of bus transport.

Mrs. Chalker

It is for county councils, with their local knowledge, to decide how the particular needs of their areas should best be met. Where conventional buses are no longer viable, innovatory forms of transport can be a great help, and my Department is doing what it can to make people generally aware of all the possibilities.

Mr. Lewis

Is my hon. Friend aware that there used to be a slogan "Get on a bus"?

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

I have been on two buses today.

Mr. Lewis

Is my hon. Friend further aware that, apart from peak hours, one cannot find a bus in the countryside. There seem to be fewer and fewer buses. I appreciate that few people travel outside peak times. Does this not show that it would almost pay if some of these subsidies were to go on taxi fares, which would cost less than it costs to run buses outside peak hours?

Mrs. Chalker

I sympathise with those in rural areas who cannot get the bus services that they wish. That is why we have encouraged the development of community transport and shared taxi systems, which are already running well in many parts of the country, and in which I expect to see a growth in the months ahead.

Mr. Flannery

Is not the low level of transport in rural areas, and generally, due to a lack of investment in transport by the Government, and is not the biggest restrictive practice in transport precisely that lack of proper investment by the Government? When this matter is examined on a world scale, is not the United Kingdom among the lowest on the international list? Is not the real reason for that the lack of proper rural transport?

Mrs. Chalker

The hon. Gentleman has got it wrong. Bus revenue support in 1982–83 was £260 million-about 20 per cent. higher than in the previous year. Rural services have not suddenly started to decline. They have been declining for many years. The Transport Act 1980 opened up new opportunities for rural areas, which have been taken up gladly in many parts of the country.

Mr. Nelson

Is my hon. Friend aware that in many rural areas, such as the one that I represent, fares on public transport are greater than those on private transport on the same routes? While that situation continues it is hardly surprising that many rural communities are not served by bus services, which are becoming increasingly unviable. Will my hon. Friend encourage bus companies to experiment with cut-price fare schemes? If they cut their fares by 50 per cent., they may be surprised to find that use more than doubles and that such systems become feasible.

Mrs. Chalker

My hon. Friend's proposals are attractive. Few bus companies can afford to run widely flung services in areas where there is insufficient demand for them to run with a sensible pricing system.

We shall examine the results of any such experiment with great care. We believe that the money that we pay in subsidy, however it is paid, must be put to the best use for people who need to travel.

Mr. Stott

The hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Lewis) asked the Minister whether she was satisfied with rural transport. I am not surprised that the Minister did not answer the question. The hon. Lady must be aware that National Bus Company mileage fell by 8 per cent. between 1980 and 1981 and that the number of passengers carried fell by 8.3 per cent. in the same year. There was a 9 per cent. loss of jobs in the National Bus Company. Between 1980 and 1981, 43 million miles of stage carriage routes were lost. That has arisen largely—

Mr. Speaker

Order. This is the time not for argument but for questions. The hon. Member has not asked a question. He may ask one now.

Mr. Stott

I seem to remember prefacing my remarks by asking the Minister whether she was aware—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Front Benchers as well as Back Benchers must be fair to the House.

Mr. Stott

Is the Minister aware that that dismal performance on rural road transport has stemmed largely from the provisions of the Transport Act 1980? Until something is done about that Act, that spiral of decline will continue.

Mrs. Chalker

The hon. Gentleman quotes many statistics. He should have listened to what I said. Rural services have been declining for many years. The 1980 Act made it easier for the small private operator to work routes which were uneconomic for the large operators.