British Rail (Hansard, 1 December 1982)

§ 2. Mr. Charles R. Morris
asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he anticipates he will next meet the chairman of British Rail to discuss the public service obligation.

§ The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. David Howell)
I meet the chairman of the British Railways Board frequently to discuss this and other issues.

§ Mr. Morris
When the Secretary of State next meets the chairman of British Rail, will he raise with him the threatened withdrawal of the Manchester to London rail sleeper service? Is he aware that it was that service that attracted some trouser-related notoriety? Can he assure the chairman of British Rail that there are hon. Members who are prepared to make the supreme sacrifice of seeing successive Chancellors of the Exchequer go trouserless if the service is retained?

§ Mr. Howell
I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will be grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's attention to his sartorial needs and concerns. With regard to the provision of sleeper services, it is mainly a matter for British Rail and its marketing division to provide services for which there is a demand. I shall see that the matter is drawn to the attention of the chairman of British Rail.

§ Mr. Major
In view of the need to improve the public service obligation, is my right hon. Friend yet able to say when he will approve investment for the electrification of the east coast main line scheme?

§ Mr. Howell
Not yet. The success of the east coast main line investment rests on making the inter-city business profitable. That has been recognised by British Rail, and was made clear by the Government as long ago as 1981. I am still awaiting the board's revised proposals on how that profitability is to be achieved. Until I have received those, it is not possible to reach a decision.

Mr. loan Evans
Instead of the Government pursuing a policy of having yet heavier juggernauts on the roads, 251 why does not the right hon. Gentleman try to get more traffic on to the railways? Do we not need a co-ordinated transport policy that encourages traffic on the railways rather than on our overcrowded roads?

§ Mr. Howell
As the hon. Gentleman will recall from our debates last week, the Government have agreed to raise to a maximum of 60 per cent. the grants for encouraging the movement of road freight on to rail through rail facilities at warehouses. The Government recognise that, but neither British Rail freight nor the interests of the nation would demand that there should be artificial protection for the rail freight industry. On the contrary, British Rail management wants to compete on fair terms, but to do so it must have efficiency, the removal of restrictive practices and high efficiency operations on the railways.

§ Mr. Robert Hughes
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If Front Bench speakers wish to ask questions, will they please indicate their intention earlier so that I can maintain a proper balance?

§ Sir Peter Emery
Will my right hon. Friend urge the chairman to announce that British Rail has every intention of keeping in operation the Waterloo to Exeter service, which is the longest service run by Southern Region? There is some fear in Dorset and Devon that this service might be closed. That would be a major worry to people living in those counties. I believe that there is no truth in the rumour, but it would help if a statement were made by the chairman of British Rail.

§ Mr. Howell
Nothing of that kind has been raised either with myself or with the Government, but I shall draw my hon. Friend's remarks to the attention of the chairman of British Rail.

§ Mr. Robert Hughes
While the Minister has fairly recently revised the PSO for last year to take care of what he calls "transitional finance", when will he announce the PSO for 1983–84?

§ Mr. Howell
Fairly shortly.

§ 3. Mr. Parry
asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he next intends to meet the chairman of the British Railways Board to discuss investment in British Rail.

§ Mr. David Howell
I meet the chairman frequently to discuss various matters of mutual interest.

§ Mr. Parry
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the chairman how he expects British Rail to maintain an efficient and modern railway system when the Government are renewing only half the necessary requirements for basic assets? The right hon. Gentleman is also plundering public property by selling off British Transport hotels, including the Liverpool Ade1phi. When will he stop this asset stripping and make a positive contribution to the future of British Rail?

§ Mr. Howell
The hon. Gentleman talks about asset stripping, but hotels overall are a drain on British Rail's finances. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would welcome anything that checked the drain on finances and enabled British Rail to increase its investment and improve the rail system.
As to the hon. Gentleman's earlier strictures, as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has said, the social 252 obligation payment to British Rail now stands at its highest level ever. The external financing limit for next year has been announced. That is broadly the same in real terms and is considerably up in cash terms. This year and last, about £240 million went straight down the drain because of strikes, and that could have gone towards better support for British Rail. There is no constraint through the investment ceiling on what British Rail invests. The constraint is that sums that should be going towards investment and equipment, which I should like to see on a greater scale, have in the past been drained away on costs. The sooner we improve that, the better it will be for the future of British Rail.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. We are still on question No. 3, when by this time we are usually on question No. 5. I remind the House that long questions and answers delay our business.

§ Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson
When my right hon. Friend last saw the chairman of British Rail, did the chairman express any views about whether it was reasonable for British Rail to continue to run a network of 11,000 miles of permanent way? In view of the comments of Mr. Lance Ibbotson, does my right hon. Friend think that it is time to reappraise how large a rail network we require?

§ Mr. Howell
I have long taken the view that we need to appraise whether the considerable sums paid by the taxpayer to British Rail are securing the social service—over and above the commercial service—that is required. It was in the light of that view that we set up the Serpell committee to look at both this and longer-term questions. That committee will be reporting fairly soon.

§ Mr. Robert Hughes
The right hon. Gentleman said that the Serpell committee would be reporting fairly soon. Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the report is published in full as soon as possible and that there will be a proper opportunity for debate in the House land elsewhere before the Government make up their mind? Frankly, the right hon. Gentleman's record on consultation is quite appalling.

§ Mr. Howell
I certainly hope that the conclusions of the Serpell report can be published, but I must take a view on the basis of the report, which I have not yet seen. As to a debate, I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's views to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.

§ Mr. Moate
Is my right hon. Friend aware that previous Governments allowed British Rail to finance by leasing using private sector finance—for example, for its locomotive programme? Is it not time that both British Rail and the Government adopted a far more determined approach to the harnessing of private sector resources and initiatives in developing British Rail investment?

§ Mr. Howell
I should like to encourage those initiatives wherever possible. My hon. Friend is aware that with regard to freight wagons, the arrangements combine private capital and operations on the railway. The chairman of British Rail has recently expressed interest in the idea of harnessing private investment for the Victoria-Gatwick link, and I have no doubt that there are other possibilities. That is one way of bringing more investment and capital in to improve our railways, a way to which we should not close our minds.