HC Deb 24 November 1981 vol 13 cc839-42

Queen's Recommendation having been signified—

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That, for the purposes of any Act of this Session ("the Act") to increase certain limits relating to the indebtedness of the British Railways Board and the National Bus Company, to the amount of compensation payable in respect of certain public service obligations of the Board, and to the amount of certain financial assistance given to the Port of London Authority and the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company, and to enable the Treasury to guarantee the discharge of the Board's liabilities to the European Company for the Financing of Railroad Rolling Stock, it is expedient to authorise——

(1) any increase in the sums payable under any other enactment out of or into the National Loans Fund or the Consolidated Fund, being an increase attributable to—

  1. (a) any provision of the Act substituting references to £1,100 million and £1,300 million for the references to £600 million and £900 million in section 42(6) of the Transport Act 1968 (which relates to the Board's indebtedness), or
  2. (b) any provision of the Act substituting a reference to £250 million or such greater sum not exceeding £275 million as may be specified by order for the reference to £200 million in section 27 of the 1968 Act (which relates to the National Bus Company's indebtedness);

(2) any increase in the sums payable under any other enactment out of money provided by Parliament or into the Consolidated Fund, being an increase attributable to any provision of the Act substituting a reference to £360 million for the reference to £160 million in section 1(3) of the Ports (Financial Assistance) Act 1981 (which imposes a limit on certain financial assistance to the Port of London Authority and the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company);

(3) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required by the Treasury for fulfilling any guarantee of the discharge of the Board's liabilities to the European Company for the Financing of Railroad Rolling Stock, and the payment into that Fund of amounts received by the Treasury by way of repayment of, and interest on, sums required for that purpose.—[Mr. Thompson.]

Mr. Ogden

It is a little unusual for someone who has already spoken in the debate to speak again, but the circumstances are different. On the Government Benches at the moment are a Secretary of State, an Under-Secretary, four Treasury Ministers, a Scottish Minister, a PPS, four Conservative Members of Parliament and a galaxy of supporting talent in the civil servants' box. I think that it is a galaxy of talent; I cannot see them as they are just disembodied heads. Who on the Government Benches would be prepared to answer questions on the money resolution? Is it to be taken for granted that the House will agree to a money resolution without an explanation from a Treasury Minister?

Mr. Kenneth Clarke

The convention that Treasury Ministers answer questions on money resolutions died out some time before I became a Member of the House. It was probably extinct before the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) became a Member. Perhaps he will feel less agitated if I use the extra minute that he has given me to answer his questions.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the funds already being granted under this year's Ports (Financial Assistance) Act. If that is what is troubling him, I can tell him that so far the Port of London Authority has received grants of about £47 million, mostly for severance, plus a guarantee of a commercial loan to the PLA of £25 million. The Mersey Docks and Harbour Company received grants of about £17 million, again mostly for severance. So far no guarantees are extended to Merseyside.

Mr. Arthur Lewis (Newham, North-West)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You know as well as I do that the money resolution is restricted. If the Minister proposes to answer questions that arose on the Second Reading debate when we have proceeded to the money resolution, I hope that it will be taken as a precedent. Usually we are precluded from raising matters on the money resolution that we wanted to mention on Second Reading. It is kind of the Minister to reply, but it is not right because it will mean that in future, perhaps on a stronger matter, an hon. Member will be precluded from having the same rights as are now being given.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong)

In this case the money resolution is as wide as the Bill. I hope that the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) will not speak again, I understood that he had finished his speech.

Mr. Clarke

I am on my feet because I am answering points on the money resolution. Perhaps the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby——

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order, Apparently the hon. Member for West Derby gave way to an intervention. The Minister will have an opportunity to reply in a moment.

Mr. Ogden

I was asking what opportunity there would be on the money resolution for questions that should be asked, perhaps by someone else, on the sum of up to £1,000 million. The Minister has said that he would be prepared to answer any questions. He is quick on his feet and in his thinking. He has at least answered one of the questions that he was not able to answer before, Will he declare tonight that for the development of the Celtic Sea Merseyside is to be a preferred port?

Mr. Clarke

If that is the only specific question that I am being asked on the money resolution, the hon. Gentleman has finally put his finger on a question that has nothing to do with the Bill or the money resolution. It is not even my responsibility. I suggest that he addresses his question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

In my speech on Second Reading I asked the Secretary of State to say what the going rate of interest was on money borrowed from the national loans fund. Is my hon. and learned Friend able to answer that?

Mr. Clarke

About 9½ per cent. is the best bet from the distinguished galaxy on the Government Front Bench. I promise to write to my hon. Friend with a specific answer.

Question put and agreed to.