§ 10. Mr. Scottasked the Secretary of State for Employment when last he met the chairman of the Engineering Industry Training Board to discuss training in the engineering industry.
§ Mr. Peter MorrisonMy right hon. Friend last met Lord Scanlon, chairman of the Engineering Industry Training Board, on 19 March. My right hon. Friend's last full discussion with him on training in the engineering industry took place on 22 October 1980.
§ Mr. ScottWill my hon. Friend confirm that Ministers were impressed by the account that Lord Scanlon gave them of the work done by the Engineering Industry Training Board in supporting training schemes—particularly apprenticeship schemes—at a time of recession when employers are cutting such schemes? When he makes up his mind about a more efficient and streamlined training system, will he bear that in mind?
§ Mr. MorrisonThe Department applauds the Engineering Industry Training Board's attitude towards apprenticeships, which is one of moving towards the setting of standards rather than time serving. As my hon. Friend probably knows, the MSC has already offered the Engineering Industry Training Board funds this year for 2,000 additional craft and technican trainees.
§ Mr. FlanneryIs it not a fact that even in the depths of the recession in the 1930s we did not have enough engineering apprentices? Is it not disgraceful that all engineering training centres feel that they are in danger? The centre in Sheffield has had to be helped by South Yorkshire county council to maintain its training facilities. Does not the Minister accept that we need more cash if we are to train apprentices? Is he aware that if we do not get that cash we shall not be able to produce goods for the world market when the upswing comes?
§ Mr. MorrisonThe hon. Gentleman may know that my right hon. Friend has not made any decision about the future of any of the training boards, and least of all about the future of the Engineering Industry Training Board. He will not make any decision until the MSC has made its recommendations. As I have said, an extra 2,000 trainees have been helped through the MSC. Therefore, we are aware of the problem.
§ Mr. NeedhamDoes my hon. Friend accept that some employers use the Government-backed schemes run through the MSC or industrial training boards to provide substitute labour? Will he give an assurance that the worries and concerns of many people on this matter are being properly looked after?
§ Mr. MorrisonI have already spoken about substitution. The MSC and the Government are keeping that under close scrutiny. I cannot say more than that.
§ Mr. Harold WalkerWill the hon. Gentleman confirm that by 1984 the Government will have imposed a further cut of £77.5 million in public support for industrial training? Does the Minister recall that on Second Reading of the Employment and Training Bill on 9 February he promised to consider carefully the extension of the period for Government withdrawal of financial support for the operating costs of training boards after 1983? Why is it now proposed that financial support should come to an end by 31 December 1981?
§ Mr. MorrisonAs the hon. Gentleman knows, on Second Reading my right hon. Friend and I said that we were aware of the difficulties facing industry as a result of the transfer of operating costs to the remaining statutory boards. That remains our position.