§ Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend certain provisions of the European Communities Act 1972.As you are well aware, Mr. Speaker, the position of the United Kingdom within the European Community is once again a live political issue. There are the pressures of the CAP, pressures of the budget, pressures on our farmers, pressures on food prices and, above all at this instant, pressure on jobs. Different parties are distilling their different positions. The Labour Party, many members of which have an undisguised and thus quite proper purpose, wish to get out of Europe and to smash any international institution that could prevent their realisation of that happy dawn—a Socialist Britain. I believe that they are wrong. We are not a smashing nation. We like instead to build.207 Then there is that uncertain and amorphous flock—the unprincipled yet gay and gentle central souls whose approach to Europe is marked by the grace, subtlety and posture of Veronique, the young French model destined for stardom on the small Italian screen.
For ourselves, the Conservatives in the Conservative Party, we believe that Britain is best, but that in a large and sometimes brutal world some things are nicer done together. We are in the EEC, and we shall probably stay in. But if we do, by the lakes and mountains of the CAP it had better get a whole lot better. We seek, and we shall have, reforms.
Next after determinating the first essential to the achievement of reform is information. Many of us over the months have attempted with stuttering success to draw knowledge from the Government and from the great pandjandrums of the Berleymont. In the Chamber I have on several occasions asked my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to explain to me and to those curious within the nation the consumer costs of the MCAs. It is sad that one so fit and so talented should suffer from partial hearing. Had he heard, I am sure that I would have had my answer.
Other questions must be asked and must be answered. How much does the French farmer cost the British housewife over and above the burden of the Brussels budget? How many jobs have we lost to the cheaper currencies of Continental Europe? Why do the statisticians in the Department of Trade concentrate on trade including oil, rather than on the mega-dole queues caused by our massive deficit in manufactures? Those questions have been asked, yet, strangely, go unanswered.
Therefore, I feel that the sensible and proper thing must be to amend the European Communities Act 1972 through new clauses in such a way as to make the provision of objective and relevant information automatic—without chance, without interpretation and without, if I may say it, deafness.
I have time for one example. During the past three years each British pound fed into the Brussels financial washing machine has come back shrunk. Our return—our dividend—has been a mere 49p. What has happened to the remainder? Claret, perhaps, or comforts and interpreters for buxom Strasbourg—no doubt the worthy and well-loved Continental farmer—all have had their share and none—perhaps some—would grudge them.
At this moment we must take care because we are entering that season of projects larded with returning British money disgorged from the brimming Brussels coffers. There are those, alas, who would, through guile darkened by base and selfish motives, call such money European. MEPs, whistle-stopping on their way from Bogota to Sierra Leone, whose every waking hour must justify the glory of their own lame institutions may, just, be tempted. Throughout the country offices and pressure groups, some funded from the Brussels interest—again with our money—may mount a massive campaign of media manipulation to praise the greater glory of the EEC, going on about jobs saved and magnificent munificence.
In those circumstances, we who form the people's elected Chamber must be on our guard. We are the people's watchdogs. In the Bill it would be made necessary for each re-routed tranche of Brussels British 208 money to bear a prominent notification, clear to all, in the style of, in the manner of, almost like a Government health warning. It would read thus:
This money, returned to us from Europe paid for by the British taxpayer, represents £1 alone of each £2 so far committed.We must trust the people, but first we must make sure that they know the facts. There will be a temptation among many of the more insistent aficionados of Brussels to try to portray every penny from Europe as European money. But the people must not be misled. They must be made aware that that money started in our pockets—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I know that the hon. Gentleman wants to tell us what would be in his Bill if he were given leave to introduce it. I am still waiting to hear the detail of it.
§ Mr. MarlowWith respect, Mr. Speaker, I have just said that any money coining from Brussels, or the information with that money, should carry a warning so that the people are fully aware that it is British money returned from Brussels and that it is a dividend merely of £1 for every £2 that we have so far expended.
§ 4.5 pm
§ Mr. Russell Johnston (Inverness)rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman indicated to me that he wished to oppose the Bill.
§ Mr. JohnstonI hoped that the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) would spend rather more of his limited time telling us precisely what he intended to do rather than simply disparaging what various people, perhaps for reasons that he disagrees with, have been trying to do for the best for Britain in European institutions. The House must remember that what the hon. Gentleman proposes—an amendment of the 1972 Act—quite simply is not practical. It is political nonsense to suggest it.
The Opposition Front Bench, whose members are notably absent, proposed that the 1972 Act should be repealed. That at least is a perfectly practical proposition. I profoundly disagree with it, but it is possible and practical. Equally, it is practical to say that the Treaty of Rome could be amended by agreement. But the hon. Gentleman is suggesting some sort of unilateral amendment to the Treaty of Rome that is impractical and impossible. I hope that no Opposition Members, holding the views that they do—with which I disagree, but which are perfectly straightforward—will support such a proposition.
What the hon. Gentleman proposes is dishonest.
§ Mr. MarlowOh, no.
§ Mr. JohnstonOh, yes. The hon. Gentleman knows the commitment of his party to the Community: he has been told so many times in the House, in my presence, by the Lord Privy Seal. He knows that many members of his party, like myself, are dissatisfied about certain of the workings of the EEC. But he knows that to pretend that some amending legislation would solve that problem is not true. Since he came to the House he has tried to build up, with some success, a reputation as a direct and forthright—not entirely concise, but forthright—Member of Parliament. He would gain more respect in the House if he came clean and said that he wanted out of the 209 Community rather than fluffing around and pretending that he could produce amending legislation. That is genuinely not true—
§ Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, West)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerI shall take the point of order later. We usually hear one hon. Member in favour of and one hon. Member against the motion without interruption.
§ Mr. JohnstonThe hon. Member for Northampton, North bemoans the lack of control that the House has over Community legislation. He specifically mentioned that. What is he doing about it? As he is a member of the governing party and presumably, therefore, has some influence in these matters, he should direct his attention to the fact that in terms of scrutiny of European legislation it is an unpalatable but recognised fact that the most impressive scrutiny comes not from this elected Chamber but from the Scrutiny Committee in another place. That is something that the House should consider.
The hon. Gentleman treated us to some references to the trade figures for the remainder of the Community. He has gone over those matters several times. I readily accept his point that oil distorts the position. But he failed to face up to two simple fundamental points. First, despite our poor economic performance—for which he cannot blame the Community—the volume of our manufacturing exports to the Community, especially in the new industries, has continued to increase. Secondly, if he doubts our ability to negotiate a fair deal with friendly countries which, according to him—I heard him say it'—need us more than we need them, how on earth does he expect to conclude a better deal with other countries? That is a quite incredible idea.
We get a bad deal from the CAP; I accept that, and do not argue about it. But if we build our alternative, as the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) did recently, on the assumption of a world surplus in food—which is a pretty ropey assumption, which I do not accept, and a narrow plank to tread—a crop failure this summer in the USSR would put all those calculations at naught. It is worth remembering that the capacity of the Community to give Poland food in the present situation has added greatly to the stability of the situation in Europe.
I shall not repeat the complete impracticability of the amendment proposed by the hon. Gentleman. You rightly drew attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that the hon. Member said little about what was in his Bill. He attempted the same exercise in July last year. We have still to see what the Bill might contain. It would have been helpful to explain what it contains.
I ask the House to reject what the hon. Gentleman said. Britain's problems are political, not national. Hon. Members may laugh. As an individual citizen, I would be considerably happier if my lot in the Community were determined by a President called Helmut Schmidt rather than in this country by a Prime Minister who was the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn). The future of Britain lies not in political unilateralism but in co-operation.
§ Mr. SpeakerI shall take the point of order before I put the Question.
§ Mr. John CarlisleWith respect, Mr. Speaker, you stopped my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, 210 North (Mr. Marlow) because he was not keeping to the subject of his Bill. The hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Johnston) then made a vicious attack on my hon. Friend's character. Surely he should have been stopped for the same reason.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Member has referred to a vicious attack having been made on the character of the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow). No one in the House would dream of doing such a thing. If he did, the hon. Member for Northampton, North would deal with him, or I would intervene. If one hon. Member wanders, unfortunately it tempts the hon. Member who is opposing him to do the same, although the two hon. Members wander along different paths.
§ Mr. John Farr (Harborough)Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I did not think that it was a vicious attack on my hon. Friend. It verged almost on the sadistic.
§ Mr. SpeakerClearly the hon. Member does not live in Wales if he thinks that what the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Johnston) said was sadistic.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business:
§ The House divided: Ayes 128, Noes 178.
211| Division No. 108] | [4.12 pm |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Garrett, John (Norwich S) |
| Allaun, Frank | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Graham, Ted |
| Bennett, Andrew(St' Kp'tN) | Grant, George(Morpeth) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Griffiths, Peter Portsm' thN) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Hamilton, James(Bothwell) |
| Blackburn, John | Hardy, Peter |
| Body, Richard | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Hawksley, Warren |
| Brotherton, Michael | Haynes, Frank |
| Brown, Michael(Brigg &Sc'n) | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) | Homewood, William |
| Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n&P) | Hooley, Frank |
| Canavan, Dennis | Huckfield, Les |
| Cant, R. B. | Hughes, Mark(Durham) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Hughes, Robert(Aberdeen N) |
| Carmichael,Neil | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Janner, HonGreville |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | John, Brynmor |
| Cohen, Stanley | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Cook, Robin F. | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Cowans, Harry | Jones, Dan(Burnley) |
| Crowther,J.S. | Kerr,Russell |
| Cryer, Bob | Lamond,James |
| Cunliffe,Lawrence | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Cunningham, Dr J.[(W'h'n) | Lloyd, Peter(Fareham) |
| Davidson, Arthur | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd) | McCartney, Hugh |
| Deakins, Eric | McDonald, DrOonagh |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | McKay, Allen(Penistone) |
| Dempsey, James | McNamara, Kevin |
| Dixon, Donald | Mc Taggart, Robert |
| Dormand, Jack | Marks, Kenneth |
| Dover, Denshore | Marlow, Tony |
| Dubs, Alfred | Marshall, D(G'gowS'ton) |
| Dunlop, John | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Eadie, Alex | Mikardo, Ian |
| Eastham, Ken | Miller, Dr M.S.(E Kilbride) |
| Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E) | Moate, Roger |
| Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) | Molyneaux, James |
| Fletcher, Ted(Darlington) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W' shawe) |
| Forrester, John | Moyle, Rt Hon Roland |
| Foster, Derek | Mudd, David |
| Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh | Newens, Stanley |
| O' Neill, Martin | Stott, Roger |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Pawsey, James | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Pendry, Tom | Thomas, Dafydd(Merioneth) |
| Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down) | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Powell, Raymond(Ogmore) | Torney, Tom |
| Race, Reg | Urwin, Rt Hon Tom |
| Richardson, Jo | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Roberts, Gwilym(Cannock) | Walker, B. (Perth) |
| Rooker, J. W. | Watkins, David |
| Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) | Weetch, Ken |
| Ross, Wm. (Londonderry) | Whitlock, William |
| Sheerman, Barry | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Shepherd, Richard | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Short, Mrs Renée | Winnick, David |
| Skinner, Dennis | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Soley, Clive | |
| Spearing, Nigel | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Spriggs, Leslie | Mr. K. Harvey Proctor and Mr. John Farr |
| Stoddart, David | |
| NOES | |
| Adley, Robert | Eden, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Alison, Michael | Emery, Peter |
| Alton, David | English, Michael |
| Ancram, Michael | Eyre, Reginald |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (S'thorne) | Fairbairn, Nicholas |
| Atkins, Robert(PrestonN) | Fairgrieve, Russell |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Faith, Mrs Sheila |
| Banks, Robert | Finsberg, Geoffrey |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Fisher, Sir Nigel |
| Beith, A.J. | Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Forman, Nigel |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Best, Keith | Freud, Clement |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Gardiner, George(Reigate) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Goodhart, Philip |
| Brittan, Leon | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Buck, Antony | Gorst John |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) | Gray, Hamish |
| Cartwright, John | Grieve, Percy |
| Chalker, Mrs.Lynda | Grist, Ian |
| Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul | Gummer John Selwyn |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hamilton, Hon A. |
| Churchill, W.S. | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Clark, SirW. (Croydon S) | Hawkins, Paul |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Heddle john |
| Cope john | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Corrie, John | Hill, James |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hogg, Hon Douglas(Gr'th'm) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Holland, Philip(Carlton) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, LordJ. | HomeRobertson, John |
| Durant, Tony | Hooson, Tom |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Rathbone, Tim |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd) | Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) |
| Hunt, David(Wirral) | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Hunt, John(Ravensbourne) | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Hund, Hon Douglas | RhysWilliams, SirBrandon |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Johnston, Russell(lnverness) | Ridsdale, SirJulian |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Roberts, M.(Cardiff NW) |
| Kimball, Marcus | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Roper, John |
| Knox, David | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Lamont, Norman | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Lang, Ian | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Lawrence Ivan | Shelton, William(Streatham) |
| Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel | Shepherd, Colin(Hereford) |
| LeMarchant, Spencer | Shersby, Michael |
| Lewis, Kenneth(Rutland) | Silvester, Fred |
| Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W' loo) | Sims, Roger |
| Luce, Richard | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W) | Speed, Keith |
| McCrindle, Robert | Spence, John |
| MacGregor, John | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| MacKay, John (Argyll) | Squire, Robin |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. | Stanbrook,Ivor |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Major, John | Stevens, Martin |
| Mates, Michael | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Mather, Carol | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Tebbit, Norman |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Thompson, Donald |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Mills, Peter (West Devon) | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Trippier, David |
| Moore, John | Trotter, Neville |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton S) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Viggers, Peter |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Waddington, David |
| Myles, David | Wainwright, R. (Colne V) |
| Needham, Richard | Wakeham, John |
| Nelson, Anthony | Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester) |
| Newton, Tony | Wall, Patrick |
| Normanton, Tom | Walters, Dennis |
| Nott, Rt Hon John | Watson, John |
| Owen, Rt Hon Dr David | Wells, Bowen |
| Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby) | Wheeler, John |
| Patten, John(Oxford) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Penhaligon, David | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Percival, Sir Ian | Whitney, Raymond |
| Porter, Barry | Wilkinson, John |
| Price, Sir David(Eastleligh) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Prior, Rt Hon James | |
| Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Radice, Giles | Mr. Robert Maclennan and Mr. Cranley Onslow. |
| Raison, Timothy |
§ Question accordingly negatived.