§ Again considered in Committee.
§ Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
§ Mr. MayhewI have entirely forgotten what I was saying, but I know what I want to say in conclusion—that it is, of course, right to test what we are proposing against a hypothetical case. But I must tell the hon. Member for Kirkdale that if we were to test it to destruction against a hypothesis such as the case of the maverick judge, who sentences someone to a year and a day in circumstances that are compatible only with preventing someone standing for Parliament, the House of Commons would not be content to put up with that. It would be open to the House of Commons to put through the House in one day a Bill that would undo the consequences of such a sentence. In extreme cases the House of Commons would surely be entitled to take extreme remedial measures.
§ Mr. James A. DunnWill the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
§ Mr. MayhewNo, because I want to finish. I think that we have spent long enough on the amendment and that the House as a whole wants to get on. Overall, in this group of amendments we are facing a great danger. If it happens once it will in time happen again, and there will then have to be established by some means a system by which the House of Commons can apply this jurisdiction consistently. Yet how can that be done?
As the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) indicated the House of Commons will have to form an opinion of the culpability of the hon. Member in question. It will have to form an opinion of the likelihood of his getting off on appeal. Perhaps it will form an opinion of the judge concerned. Then, because it did so on that occasion, why should it not do so the next time? In waters of that kind, we are faced with impossible difficulties.
My right hon. Friend will give careful thought to what has been said in the debate, as he undertook to do in the debate initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham. I cannot say that we shall do that with a commitment to accept the principle of these amendments but we shall think about them carefully. For the moment, I cannot advise the Committee to accept the amendment.
§ Mr. BudgenI supported the Bill on Second Reading with considerable reluctance because I distrust rushed legislation. I have listened to the debate, which is, as my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State said, intimately connected with the amendment put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), and there is no doubt that the general arguments advanced by my hon. Friend were much stronger in relation to clause 2(2) than they were on the wider point he put forward.
My hon. and learned Friend is clearly uneasy about subsection (2). It would be monstrous if the Bill—arising, as it does, from rushed legislation in 1967 which was not properly considered—has to be rushed through because there is insufficient time to deal with a genuine difficulty. It would bring the House of Commons into contempt.
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary often appeals to the loyalty of Members of the Tory Party. It is a proper and genuine appeal which is usually responded to, but our loyalty cannot be called upon at every turn, and if we are required to put through legislation about which we have doubts when a problem is not dealt with because of the shortage of time, it will be more difficult for us next time round to support rushed legislation.
I hope that my right hon. Friend will have urgent consultations with the parliamentary draftsman to deal with a serious anomaly.
§ Mr. WhitelawI reinforce what my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State said. Of course, I shall consider the points that have been made on this issue. It would be possible to make a change in another place, and I shall consider this, but I must do so at this stage without commitment. I undertake to consider what has been said.
§ Mr. McNamaraI am grateful to the Home Secretary for what he said, but it does not go far enough. This is now not a Government matter; it is a House of Commons matter.
I wish to speak briefly on the comments made by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell). If I gave the impression of wanting to usurp the power of the court, that was not my intention, and I apologise to him and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley). On the question of giving ourselves power by statute, power here is being taken away by statute and we are seeking to put it back.
The Minister of State, in answer to an interjection, stressed that a member of his profession may be sentenced and sent to gaol, but there has been no instance of disbarment. That applies also to a member of the Law Society. If a member of the medical profession commits a heinous offence, he will be disciplined by his professional body, as will members of many other professions. On occasion they employ members of the legal profession to defend them. I am not suggesting that that should happen here. A Member of the House of Commons might well be convicted of a serious offence.
Let us remember that we are not necessarily talking about offences that have anything to do with the situation in Ireland. We must get that out of our minds. We are dealing not with a terrorist situation but with one that could arise in any way. That is one of the Bill's big faults. It goes from the particular to the general, and that is not a good thing in any legislation.
Despite what the Home Secretary and the Minister of State have said, we should press the issue to a Division 470 because this is a serious issue. Although the Minister may properly appeal to the loyalty of his right hon. and hon. Friends, I hope that some of them will have listened carefully to the remarks made by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen).
§ Question put, That the amendment be made.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 48, Noes 132.
471| Division No. 233] | [10.10 pm |
| AYES | |
| Alton, David | Maxton, John |
| Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) | Molyneaux, James |
| Beith, A. J. | Morton, George |
| Canavan, Dennis | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Cook, Robin F. | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g) | Penhaligon, David |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down) |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Richardson, Jo |
| Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Roper, John |
| Deakins, Eric | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Ross, Wm. (Londonderry) |
| Dixon, Donald | Sheerman, Barry |
| Dormand, Jack | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Dunlop, John | Skinner, Dennis |
| Dunn, James A. | Soley, Clive |
| English, Michael | Stallard, A. W. |
| Foster, Derek | Stoddart, David |
| Freud, Clement | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Wainwright, R.(Colne V) |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Winnick, David |
| Haynes, Frank | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Hooley, Frank | |
| Howells, Geraint | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Mr. Kevin McNamara and |
| McKelvey, William | Mr. Ernie Ross |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Ancram, Michael | Goodhew, Victor |
| Arnold, Tom | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Baker, Kenneth(St.M'bone) | Greenway, Harry |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Hamilton, Hon A. |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Best, Keith | Hannam,John |
| Blackburn, John | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hawkins, Paul |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Hawksley, Warren |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Heddle, John |
| Bright, Graham | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Brinton, Tim | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) | Kilfedder, James A. |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Buck, Antony | Kitson, Sir Timothy |
| Butcher, John | Lang, Ian |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Chapman, Sydney | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Lee, John |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Colvin, Michael | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Cope, John | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Costain, Sir Albert | McCrindle, Robert |
| Cranborne, Viscount | MacGregor, John |
| Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Dover, Denshore | Major, John |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Marlow, Tony |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Mates, Michael |
| Eyre, Reginald | Mather, Carol |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Faith, Mrs Sheila | Mayhew, Patrick |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Fox, Marcus | Moate, Roger |
| Fraser, Peter (South Angus) | Moore, John |
| Morgan, Geraint | Stanley, John |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Steen, Anthony |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Stevens, Martin |
| Murphy, Christopher | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Neale, Gerrard | Tapsell, Peter |
| Needham, Richard | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Newton, Tony | Thompson, Donald |
| Onslow, Cranley | Thorne, Neil (Ilord South) |
| Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby) | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Paisley, Rev Ian | Viggers, Peter |
| Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Waddington, David |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Wakeham, John |
| Percival, Sir Ian | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Watson, John |
| Renton, Tim | Wells, Bowen |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Wickenden, Keith |
| Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Wilkinson, John |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Shersby, Michael | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Sims, Roger | Wolfson, Mark |
| Speed, Keith | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Speller, Tony | |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Sproat, Iain | Mr. Selwyn Gummer and |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Mr. Alastair Goodlad |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clauses 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.