PENALTIES FOR OFFENCES (Hansard, 25 June 1981)

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we may take Lords amendments Nos. 7 and 8.

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
These three small amendments are consequential on additions made to the Bill in the House creating the power to licence vessels that receive fish by trans-shipment.

§ Mr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East)
The amendments are consequential on the new clauses which the Minister moved on Report. We were pleased that he did so because we felt that the most important objective was an effective system of licensing of klondikers. We are moving into the mackerel season, and no doubt the klondikers of Eastern Europe will be appearing on the scene. We regard the control of klondikers as vital for conservation reasons and because jobs are being lost to this country by the trans-shipment of mackerel and other species.
The Minister of State referred previously to the klondiking which took place with herring. We hope that successful herring fishing will develop again without the return of the klondikers. When I asked the Minister whether the licence power could be withdrawn, he sand that it could. These amendments will make it even easier under the appropriate legislation to debar an owner of a klondiking vessel from holding a licence.
The most important aspect of this matter is the creation of a framework for the licensing of klondikers. It is academic to talk about the withdrawal of licences, if a licensing system is not in operation. Having achieved 403 licensing, it is important to ensure that the Government will follow it through. That is the will of the House. The House would not have wanted the new clause if it did not intend it to be used.
Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the Government will press ahead with these measures and that an order will be laid in time for effective licensing of the klondikers to take place in the forthcoming season?

§ Mr. Albert McQuarrie (Aberdeenshire, East)
I wish briefly to support the remarks made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang). As my right hon. Friend the Minister is aware, when this matter was discussed in Committee, it gave rise to considerable concern among those of us who have large fishing interests. I hope that my right hon. Friend will give an assurance that not only will the licensing of klondikers be implemented, but that both he and his colleagues have every intention of implementing such a system once the Bill has received Royal assent.
I am delighted to see my right hon. Friend the Minister speaking from the Dispatch Box today. This is the first occasion that he has done so since he was honoured by the Queen in the recent Honours List.

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. McQuarrie) for his kind remarks. I appreciate that this is an important matter. As the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) acknowledged, the Bill did not originally include this power but as a result of our debates in Committee, it has now been included. I do not wish to disappoint the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend, but I have not changed the view that I expressed in Committee. I am happy to have the power, but as hon. Members know, considerable control powers as regards klondikers have been included in the Bill. Those powers will help us to deal with abuses in the system of klondiking. At this stage, I cannot give an assurance that we will take immediate powers to introduce the licensing of klondiking vessels. Indeed, we should not physically be able to do so in time for the coming season.
Obviously, licensing powers cannot be introduced without considerable discussion with the interests concerned. Therefore, in purely practical terms, it would not be possible to introduce such powers. I do not want to mislead the House, by saying "in purely practical terms" as if it were a cover-up for other reasons. It would also be useful if we could use the coming mackerel season and possibly the herring season, if—I emphasise "if'—it is reopened, to see how the new control powers operate. Until we have experience of the new control powers in the coming season, I shall keep an open mind about whether licensing powers should be introduced later.

§ Mr. Strang
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his remarks are most disappointing and will be a matter of considerable regret to large sections of the freezing and processing industry? They are determined that fish caught by our fishermen in our waters should be landed at British ports, with the associated creation of wealth and jobs. I serve notice on the Minister that the Opposition—no doubt with the support of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, 404 East (Mr. McQuarrie)—will press the Government to go ahead quickly with the introduction of such a licensing scheme.

§ Mr. Buchanan-Smith
The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) has adopted an extremely simplistic view. He knows that such licensing powers cannot be introduced without full consultation with those concerned. I stick to the undertaking that I gave in Committee, which no one questioned. I am a little concerned that the hon. Gentleman should put that interpretation on what I have said today.
We have taken considerable control powers, which will enable us to deal with many of the problems. The hon. Gentleman must acknowledge that. My mind remains open as to whether it is necessary, in addition, to take licensing powers. I am sure that I have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. McQuarrie) when I say that I am not prepared to take licensing powers simply for the sake of them. That would be foolish. To impose restrictions without full knowledge of what one was doing and without full consultation would not make sense.
I repeat that I am glad that we have such licensing powers. However, it is only sensible and practical to see, in the coming season, how the additional control measures work. I shall give the matter further consideration if, in the light of our experience of the new control powers, it seems necessary to supplement them will full licensing powers. I do not dissent one iota from the hon. Gentleman's general view that we should get the maximum advantage from mackerel and herring fishing. I shall certainly use whatever means are available to enable us to do that.