Law and Order (Hansard, 18 June 1981)

§ 7. Sir John Biggs-Davison
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about law and order in the Province.

§ 11. Mr. Farr
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the current security situation in the Province.

§ Mr. Humphrey Atkins
Since I last answered questions on 14 May, two more hunger strikers have died and we have seen further outbreaks of street rioting and a fresh spate of terrorist attacks on the security forces. Apart from the hunger strikers, 19 people have been killed in the past five weeks, 12 of them members of the security forces.
I believe that the police and the Army have handled the situation magnificently. They have shown exemplary courage and restraint in the face of the vicious attacks mounted on them in recent weeks. Thanks to their skill and 1167 their wise choice of tactics, the street violence has been contained within limited areas and has, in fact, now died down. Since 1 March, no fewer than 535 persons have been charged with offences arising out of the street violence.
The security forces remain no less determined in their fight against terrorism. So far this year, 453 persons have been charged with serious terrorist-type crimes and considerable quantities of arms, ammunition and explosives have been recovered. The Chief Constable and the GOC are satisfied that they have all the resources that they need for the job, and they know that they have the Government's complete support in their valiant and painstaking efforts to restore peace and normality throughout Northern Ireland.

§ Sir John Biggs-Davison
Agreeing with my right hon. Friend about the gallantry and also the successes of the security forces, and wishing that the media would sometimes present them more adequately, may I ask this question? When a new Government is formed in Dublin, will Her Majesty's Government tell it that neither the current talks nor the unique relationship spoken of by the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister will be easy to justify to our people while the territory of the Republic is still used as a base for terrorist invasions of the United Kingdom?

§ Mr. Atkins
May I start by extending my congratulations to my hon. Friend on his new distinction? The answer to his question is "Yes, Sir." We do not yet know, of course, who will be the Prime Minister of the Republic after the end of the month, but the House may be certain that the position of Her Majesty's Government, the talks that we have with the Republic and the requests that we make of it will be exactly the same, whoever it is.

§ Mr. Farr
May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the steady way in which he is directing matters in Northern Ireland at this difficult time? Has there been any change in emphasis is cross-border relationships and co-operation since the election in the South?

§ Mr. Atkins
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he says. The answer to his question is "No, Sir." The Chief Constable tells me that the co-operation that he and the security forces in Northern Ireland are receiving remains high, and we are all delighted about that.

§ Mr. Molyneaux
In view of the vicious attacks on the security forces to which the Secretary of State referred, is it not time greatly to increase the strength and use of counter-terrorist units, giving them much greater freedom to act against the IRA murder squads?

§ Mr. Atkins
The security forces have complete freedom under the law. They are constrained only by the necessity to uphold the law which they are enforcing. They must abide by it because they are enforcing it. They can and do use a variety of methods in their attempts to overcome terrorism. As the hon. Gentleman and the House know, they are increasingly successful. I do not believe that anyone here would want the security forces to abandon lawful methods, because they are the people whom we employ to uphold the law, and they must do it themselves.

§ Mr. Stephen Ross
Is it not time that we nailed the idea that we can make further concessions in the Maze? Is it possible for the Secretary of State to arrange for a prison governor, not from Northern Ireland but from elsewhere 1168 in the United Kingdom, to appear on television to show just what it would mean if we gave further freedom within the wings and allowed prisoners to wear their own clothing? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that we are already asking prison officers to maintain security when they cannot distinguish between prisoners and civilians working in the prison?

§ Mr. Atkins
That is an interesting idea, which I should like to pursue, even though it is not possible for me to arrange who appears on television and who does not. We must use every method open to us to inform the public and the world at large of the existing prison regime and the consequences of giving way to the prisoners' demands, which we shall not do.

§ Mr. Kilfedder
The right hon. Gentleman is aware of the terrorist training camps in Libya and behind the Iron Curtain. Can he confirm that some of the Provisional IRA terror experts have been trained at the camps or by people who have emerged from them, which is particularly relevant in view of the recent capture of a Russian rocket launcher?

§ Mr. Atkins
No, Sir, I cannot confirm that precisely. There is no doubt that there is contact between the Provisional IRA and other terrorist organisations throughout the world, but I cannot go as far as the hon. Gentleman suggests. It is clear that we and the Government of the Republic must ensure and are doing our utmost to ensure that training facilities are not available to terrorists. We are having some success in this.

§ Mr. Concannon
Is the Secretary of State aware that the Opposition would like to join him in his thanks to our security forces about the period they have been going through? Does he agree that our security forces in Northern Ireland are now at their lowest level since 1969? Following the recent arms haul at the UDA headquarters, will the Minister tell the House the results of his inquiry into that organisation and the possibility of proscription? Is he further aware that the Opposition are not against a thorough review of prison conditions in the United Kingdom as a whole and that the prison service in Northern Ireland will be shown to be a fine example to the rest of the United Kingdom? Is he aware that a petition is currently circulating, emanating from Leicester prison, which is a hell hole compared with the Maze, calling for prison conditions to be brought up to the standards in Northern Ireland?

§ Mr. Atkins
I was not aware of that petition, although I know of others circulating in the right hon. Gentleman's constituency. I am interested to hear of it and would like to see it. As anyone who has had anything to do with this knows, there is no doubt at all that conditions in the Maze prison are far in advance of those obtaining in almost any other prison in Europe. That is why I said earlier that it is perfectly clear that the hunger strike and the protest have nothing whatever to do with prison conditions. Any steps that we can take to make this more widely known—I shall look at those suggested by the right hon. Gentleman—we shall certainly consider.