SPECIAL INSPECTIONS (Hansard, 12 June 1981)

§ Mr. Blackburn
I beg to move amendment No. 99, in page 8, line 16, leave out from 'persons' to 'as' in line 18 and insert— 'who appear to the local authority to be competent for the purpose and who are authorised by the authority to conduct the inspection. (3) Where the purpose of the inspection relates to the health of animals, the inspectors shall include (or, if one, the inspector shall be) a veterinary surgeon or veterinary practitioner with experience of animals kept in the zoo. (4) On appointing persons under subsection (2), the authority shall communicate to them and to the operator of the zoo the purpose and scope of the inspection. (5) Paragraphs (c) to (e) of subsections (4) and subsections (5) to (7) of section 10 apply to a special inspection.'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to take the following amendments:
No. 100, in page 8, line 16, leave out from 'persons' to first 'and' in line 17 and insert 'who are on the list' No. 102, in page 8, line 22, leave out 'of the special inspections' and insert— 'and scope of the special inspection.'.

§ Mr. Blackburn
The amendment reassures the zoo industry that the people carrying out inspections will be qualified, competent and authorised. Where the purpose of the inspection relates to the health of animals, the inspectors will include a veterinary surgeon or veterinary practitioner with experience of animals kept in a zoo. I commend that wording. A fair amount of debate has taken place over the expression "exotic animals". I commend, therefore, the words: experience of animals of kinds kept in the zoo".

§ Mr. Colvin
As amendment No. 100 standing in my name is also being discussed, I should like to ask my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, West (Mr. Blackburn) if he will give an undertaking to consider further what is proposed in this amendment. I have no intention of attempting to move the amendment. Clause 11(2) states: A special inspection under this section shall be conducted by persons appearing to the local authority to be qualified for the purpose". That is extremely vague. The word "appearing" is itself pretty vague. It also raises the question of qualifications. No one has yet been able to tell me precisely the 691 qualifications that will be required to enable a local authority to decide that a person should carry out special inspections. My contention is that the industry would prefer to see members of the list included in this part of the Bill instead of the words: persons appearing to the local authority to be qualified". That would improve the Bill. It may be argued that my proposal would put up the cost of inspections. I believe that this is the lesser of two evils. I do not like either proposition. I would prefer, however, to see those on the list cast in the role of making special inspections rather than some vague undertaking that a local authority—a district council, no less—will decide those qualified to inspect zoos under the clause.

§ Mr. Peyton
I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, West (Mr. Blackburn) will take the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Colvin) seriously. One of the strongly held anxieties of those who have doubts about the Bill concerns the competence of local authorities to take on this new duty. That is not to say that local authorities are unworthy. However, their experience of zoos and wild animals is very limited. One wonders whether they are competent to select people who are suitable to carry out the inspections.
I hope very much that my hon. Friend will consider the amendment and take seriously what my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West has said. I hope that he will think carefully about whether it would be better if the people who carried out the inspection were taken from a list approved by the Secretary of State, instead of being people who, according to this very vague—I think unacceptable—wording appear to the local authority to be competent for the purpose and who are authorised by the authority to conduct the inspection. This is a genuine point, and I hope that my hon. Friend will consider it seriously and give a clear undertaking now.

§ Sir Anthony Kershaw
I should like to reinforce what has just been said. As I understand the amendment, the inspector will now be doing two things. He will be inspecting—as we discussed on amendment No. 86—to make recommendations to bring any features of the zoo up to the normal standards of modern zoo practice". He will also be inspecting "for the purpose of the health of the animals". I do not know that modern zoo practice is necessarily the best zoo practice, but I understand that different opinions are held about it.
Zoos exist for different purposes—some for breeding, some merely for showing the animals, and some whose purpose is not exactly defined. Presumably the practice in each zoo will be different, according to the general purposes and aspects of animal health and breeding that each zoo might have. What possible qualification can a local authority have to understand that? Indeed, it is a matter of dispute among the greatest experts as to how best to manage exotic animals.
The position on health is much easier. Local authorities are accustomed, for health reasons to inspecting all sorts of premises. They do so in the ordinary course of their duties, and it is not very difficult or technically very extraordinary to be able to say whether animals are kept in healthy conditions. But I do not understand how one can inspect for modern zoo practices. I doubt whether local authorities have the expertise to do that. Indeed, I doubt whether the experts are agreed about what modern zoo practices are or should be.
692 The burden is much too vaguely worded to be put on the shoulders of local authorities. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) said, it would be better if the Secretary of State, who presumably can put his hands on such experts as exist, were to have this authority. I am certain that a local authority inspecting for modern zoo practices is a ridiculous proposition, and it should not be allowed to go through the House.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
The Question is—

§ Mr. Peyton
Is it not the intention of my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, West (Mr. Blackburn) to reply to the representations that have been made to him? I have asked him for an undertaking, but he ignores the request.

§ Mr. Blackburn
I am happy to reply. The question of people's qualifications and of the local authority employing people with knowledge of exotic animals ran through the debate on this amendment. It was suggested that the authority would not have the facility to recruit. We are talking about the Secretary of State's list, which will consist of people who are qualified to deal with exotic animals and who are of a very high standing. They will be at the disposal of the local authorities. What is more important is that there will be a right for the Secretary of State to be informed in writing, and if there is any dispute he will have his own competent man to go down and resolve the matter.

§ Mr. Colvin
That is understood by us all, but we are now suggesting, under clause 11(2), that for special inspections the local authority may call in someone from the Secretary of State's list. That will probably be all right, and that is what we want, but that is not what the Bill says. The subsection says that it is to be done by persons appearing to the local authority to be qualified'". That does not mean that it will necessarily be someone on the list, yet that is what the industry wants. If that is what my hon. Friend says will happen, why is it not in the Bill? Then there would be no doubt.

§ Mr. Blackburn
That is not what I am saying. I shall spell it out so that there is no misunderstanding. Many special inspections will take place under clause 11 that will not require a highly competent, qualified man with knowledge of exotic animals. The inspection may be required for a very minor matter. If there is any dispute, the full power of the list can be brought into being at that stage, but it would be futile to have the well-qualified people on the list going round on clause 11 inspections when the dispute might be quite trivial and easily resolved at local level. The matter of expense also arises. I invite the House to resist the amendment, particularly as we have passed amendment No. 99

Mr. Deputy Speaker
The House has not passed amendment No. 99. I was about to put it.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment made: No. 102, in page 8, line 22, leave out 'of the special inspections' and insert 'and scope of the special inspection.'.—[Mr. Blackburn.]