HC Deb 11 June 1981 vol 6 cc529-31
1. Mr. Dubs

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people are currently in penal establishments in England and Wales.

19. Mr. Teddy Taylor

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons were detained in Her Majesty's prisons at the most recent date for which figures are available; and what were the comparable figures for 1971 and 1976, respectively.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Patrick Mayhew)

The total number of inmates of prison department establishments in England and Wales was 40,300 on 30 April 1971; 41,500 on 30 April 1976; and 43,600 on 30 April 1981.

Mr. Dubs

Is the Minister aware that there is great support for the Government's policy of trying to reduce the size of the prison population? Will he rest assured that he will have the full support of many hon. Members if he resists the ridiculous statements that were recently made by the Magistrates' Association, which opposed the progressive ideas put forward about the parole system?

Mr. Mayhew

I am not in the least surprised that there is a general desire to reduce the prison population. The various means by which that may be brought about must be looked at with the greatest care. It is not right to say that the Magistrates' Association has made any pronouncement on the proposals set out in the review of parole. They are broad proposals and the Government will listen carefully to comments about them, from whatever quarter they may come.

Mr. Taylor

Are we not in danger of drifting into having to determine sentences, even for serious crimes, according to the number of cells available? In view of the mounting crisis in our prisons and the failure of existing deterrents, will my hon. and learned Friend look, with an open mind, at the possibility of giving the courts the right to impose the penalty of corporal punishment for crimes of violence and vandalism, particularly in view of the sharp rise in violent crime in the one part of the British Isles that until recently used corporal punishment?

Mr. Mayhew

My hon. Friend need not fear chat the sentences given by courts will be governed by the number of places available in prisons. As we said in our manifesto, courts must always have medium to long-term prison sentences available for dealing with tough and violent offenders. My hon. Friend will know that a Royal Commission considered corporal punishment in 1938 and again, I think, in 1960. Grave doubts were expressed about the efficacy of corporal punishment as a deterrent. Therefore, I do not hold out much hope for that prospect.

Mr. Kilroy-Silk

Does the Minister accept that an overwhelming amount of research supports the view that many prison sentences could be reduced without endangering the public and that the deterrent effect of prison sentences is felt in the early months? Given that, and the desperate need to relieve the scandalous overcrowding that prisoners suffer and in which prison officers have to work, is not there an overwhelmingly powerful case for introducing an automatic parole scheme, as outlined in the review of the parole system?

Mr. Mayhew

There is a great deal of evidence to show that it is the early stages of a custodial sentence that bite in terms of deterrence. There is also a lot of evidence to suggest that long-term sentences are, perhaps surprisingly, not the deterrent that one might—at first sight—suppose. The Government will listen to whatever representations are made on the question whether the proposals set out in the review of parole should become Government policy. The hon. Gentleman is very knowledgeable on these matters and I am grateful to him for his remarks. We genuinely wish to listen to whatever may be said.

Mr. Lawrence

Is it evident from the latest figures on the prison population that the policy of shorter prison sentences has been a success?

Mr. Mayhew

The statements by the Court of Appeal and especially the Lord Chief Justice in the cases of Upton and Bibi were made last year. It is too soon to know to what extent that has taken effect in the form of shorter sentences passed by the courts. It is important that the courts pay attention to what the Lord Chief Justice has said, and, naturally enough, the Government are anxious to see what influence those statements will have.

Dr. Summerskill

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman bear in mind that the Contempt of Court [Lords] Bill, soon to be reported to the House, introduces a new imprisonable offence, that of misbehaviour in a magistrates court? As we are trying to imprison fewer people and to increase the number of non-custodial offences, will the hon. and learned Gentleman make representations to his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General?

Mr. Mayhew

That is a separate matter. The Government and those who advocate shorter sentences in proper cases do not advocate depriving the courts of the power to impose a custodial sentence, if they wish to use it, where policy dictates that that is desirable. If it is thought that misbehaviour in a magistrates court should be rewarded, on proper grounds, with a prison sentence that must be. Therefore, I do not agree with the hon. Lady.