§ 11. Mr. Woolmerasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he expects the imposition of charges on overseas visitors to have central, regional or area staffing implications.
§ Mr. Patrick JenkinNo, Sir.
§ Mr. WoolmerIf there is a requirement to ask overseas visitors to provide some proof of residence or length of stay in the United Kingdom, is not this certain to increase the demands upon staff time? Even more important, is not there the distinct possibility in the minds of many in the ethnic minority communities that by asking people to prove presence in this country to determine whether they are qualified for free treatment, those with black or brown skins, with foreign-sounding names, may be asked to provide proof of entitlement by providing passports? Does the Minister understand that this is an issue that is causing considerable anxiety among the ethnic communities?
§ Mr. JenkinI am aware of the anxiety that has been expressed and I am certain that it is misplaced. We have consulted the Commission for Racial Equality and other organisations which represent ethnic minorities to ensure that we have the simplest and the most non-discriminatory form of questioning that we can devise. We have made it 258 clear that any member of the ethnic minority who is living in the United Kingdom is as entitled to free use of the National Health Service as anyone else.
The present rules give rise to considerable difficulties, as recent articles in the press have demonstrated. All the existing tests and questioning have taken place under the existing rules. Those who criticise the proposals that the Government are putting forward must recognise that the present rules have in the past caused a good deal of distress and have involved a certain amount of inquiry, including inquiries of the Home Office immigration department. We want to have a simple test that will apply to everybody, one which every health authority will be able to operate simply.
§ Mr. Robert AtkinsDoes my right hon. Friend agree that this has nothing to do with racialism? If it had, he and his right hon. and hon. Friends would not be a party to it. Does he agree that it is a long overdue measure and is merely a balancing-out operation? British people have to pay when they go abroad and it is surely only right to expect that when people from overseas come to the United Kingdom they should pay for treatment that they receive from the National Health Service.
§ Mr. JenkinI agree entirely with my hon. Friend. We have engaged in one-sided largess for too long. No other country in the Western world gives free treatment to visitors from overseas. No other country has sought to follow our example. It is time to put the balance right.
§ Mrs. DunwoodyWill the right hon. Gentleman please stop pandering to the bigotry of his right hon. and hon. Friends and admit that the scheme is unworkable? He has already had to delay its implementation because he knows that everyone who is not 100 per cent. white or who does not have an Anglo-Saxon accent will be put through a series of questions by an admissions clerk to which they would not be subjected in any other circumstances. If the right hon. Gentleman lacks evidence, he should read the cases that have already been referred to him concerning St. Stephen's hospital.
§ Mr. JenkinThe majority of patients who seek treatment as out-patients or in-patients at hospitals will have been referred to them by their general practitioners. I expect that in the majority of cases the general practitioner's letter will mean that the prospective patient will be asked no more than the first basic and simple questions —namely, name and address and how long the individual has been in the United Kingdom. Nothing more than that will be required. The hon. Member for Crewe (Mrs. Dunwoody) is doing no good to the case that she tries to make by exaggerating to an extreme degree. We are still consulting and when we are ready with proposals we shall come forward and announce them to the House.
§ Mrs. DunwoodyDid not the right hon. Gentleman tell me this week that in future we shall find ourselves in the bizarre situation whereby overseas students coming here for medical or dental treatment training will not in the first three years of their training —for which they will pay more than any other student —be entitled to any form of treatment? Why does not he admit that he is hoping to look good when he is talking about what he has done in the National Health Service at the next Tory Party conference?
§ Mr. JenkinThere has for a long time been public demand that foreigners coming from overseas should pay 259 for health care in the same way that British people pay for health care when in other countries. We want to ensure that we have a system that is simple to operate, that is clear to understand and that brings in the revenue that we want to have.