§ Mr. Harold WalkerI beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 2, line 44, at end insert—
'(1A) For subsection (2A)(d)(i) of Section 4 of the said Act of 1964 there shall be substituted:I shall try to be brief, because we are on familiar ground. Reference was made to the issue on Second Reading and in Committee. However, the amendment uses a different formula to produce a similar result.
- "(i) does not exceed an amount which the Minister estimates is equal to 3 per cent. of the aggregate of the emoluments and payments intended to be disbursed as emoluments which are paid and payable, by that employer to or in respect of persons employed in the industry, in respect of the period specified in the proposals as the period which is relevant for the purposes of this sub-paragraph, or".'.
We are acting in accordance with the MSC review "Outlook on Training". That made it clear that severing the link between the Government and the board's operating costs—which is a return to the 1954 Act provisions—should be accompanied by the removal of the statutory ceiling on levy.
If the Government want to behave consistently—at least in that one respect—with "Outlook on Training", they should withdraw the ceiling on the levy. We say that not only because the review body recommended it and we think it right—we supported the severing of the link between the Government and the funding of operating costs—but because if the 1964 Act has not fulfilled all the hopes pinned on it—and I doubt that it has, because some may have been pitched too high—it is because we did not apply the carrot and stick principle with sufficient rigour and vigour.
Perhaps the penalties for an employer who does not fulfil his training obligations should have been heavier. 343 That would have provided the resources for the boards to make more generous grants. That was one of the provisions of the 1964 Act. I have always said that if a firm fulfils or goes beyond its reasonable training obligations, and if the levy grant system is sufficiently generous to reward that firm, that should be done. No harm would be caused by doing so. Perhaps it is because we did not apply sufficiently heavy levies and sufficiently rewarding grants that the Act was not as successful as we had hoped it would be.
Another difficulty arises from the need of the boards to have a level of levy that is adequate to ensure not only that the necessary training arrangements are carried out and that they employ the necessary staff to do so, but that they can meet that part of their costs which during past years has been supplied by Government. I refer to the additional levy to meet operating costs.
Having regard to all that Ministers have said about the importance of training and the importance of freedom in such matters, we should return to the boards the discretion that they formerly held under the 1964 Act. That is the purpose of the amendment.
§ Mr. Peter MorrisonWe discussed in Committee, at great length and for good reasons, the question of operating costs. The Government made their view clear. The power of boards to raise a levy exceeding 1 per cent. of emoluments should be exercised only if there is an affirmative resolution. I shall come to the question of operating costs later.
As the right hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker) knows, 1 per cent. is not the absolute ceiling. It is the figure at which a different level of parliamentary control comes into operation. We believe that that is right, and we are not persuaded that there is a need to raise the ceiling for example to the 3 per cent. suggested by the right hon. Gentleman.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is ready in principle to approve proposals above 1 per cent. and to seek appropriate resolution, provided that he is convinced that there is a good reason to do so. As the House and the right hon. Gentleman will know, only one board has operated a levy of more than 1 per cent. of payroll since the 1973 Act came into force. The majority of boards operate levies significantly below that ceiling.
That does not necessarily suggest that the 1 per cent. ceiling has been a great constraint on boards. I am aware that some boards are worried about needing a higher rate of levy to meet operating costs, but I am not convinced that that would be necessary to any significant extent.
As the House knows, we have made some provision for operating costs. Boards will be allowed to raise up to a 0.2 per cent. levy on a non-exemptible basis, without going through the consensus. That figure was set with operating costs in mind. Many boards have sufficient leeway in their present levy rates to make whatever adjustments are needed without going above 1 per cent. To change to the 3 per cent. suggested by the right hon. Gentleman would not be right. I advise the House to resist the amendment.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided, Ayes 170, Noes 232.
346| Division No. 214] | [9.14 pm |
| AYES | |
| Allaun, Frank | Archer, Rt Hon Peter |
| Anderson, Donald | Bennett, Andrew (St'kp't N) |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon A.(M'b'ro) | Kerr, Russell |
| Bradley, Tom | Kilfedder, James A. |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Lamond, James |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Leighton, Ronald |
| Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S) | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Buchan, Norman | Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) |
| Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Campbell, Ian | Litherland, Robert |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Carmichael, Neil | McCartney, Hugh |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | McKelvey, William |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Cohen, Stanley | Maclennan, Robert |
| Coleman, Donald | McNally, Thomas |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | McTaggart, Robert |
| Conlan, Bernard | Magee, Bryan |
| Cook, Robin F. | Marshall, D (G'gow S'ton) |
| Cowans, Harry | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Craigen, J. M. | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Crowther, J. S. | Martin, M (G'gow S'burn) |
| Cryer, Bob | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Maxton, John |
| Dalyell, Tam | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Davidson, Arthur | Meacher, Michael |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert |
| Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Deakins, Eric | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen) |
| Dempsey, James | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Dewar, Donald | Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
| Dixon, Donald | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Dormand, Jack | Morton, George |
| Douglas, Dick | Moyle, Rt Hon Roland |
| Dunn, James A. | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Newens, Stanley |
| Eastham, Ken | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Parry, Robert |
| English, Michael | Pendry, Tom |
| Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Penhaligon, David |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Ewing, Harry | Prescott, John |
| Fitch, Alan | Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S) |
| Flannery, Martin | Richardson, Jo |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Ford, Ben | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Forrester, John | Rooker, J. W. |
| Foster, Derek | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Foulkes, George | Sheerman, Barry |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| George, Bruce | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) |
| Golding, John | Silverman, Julius |
| Gourlay, Harry | Skinner, Dennis |
| Graham, Ted | Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles) |
| Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) | Stoddart, David |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Strang, Gavin |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Home Robertson, John | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Homewood, William | Thomas, Dr R.(Carmarthen) |
| Hooley, Frank | Tilley, John |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Huckfield, Les | Wainwright, E.(Dearne V) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Wainwright, R.(Colne V) |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster) |
| Janner, Hon Greville | Welsh, Michael |
| John, Brynmor | White, J. (G'gow Pollok) |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Whitlock, William |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W) |
| Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Wilson, Rt Hon Sir H.(H'ton) | |
| Wilson, William (C'try SE) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Winnick, David | Mr. Frank R. White and |
| Woodall, Alec | Mr. Frank Haynes. |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Ancram, Michael | Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) |
| Arnold, Tom | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Atkins, Robert (Preston N) | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) | Goodhart, Philip |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Gorst, John |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Greenway, Harry |
| Best, Keith | Griffiths, E.(B'y St. Edm'ds) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Grist, Ian |
| Blackburn, John | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Body, Richard | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Bowden, Andrew | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Henderson, Barry |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Hicks, Robert |
| Bright, Graham | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Brittan, Leon | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Holland, Philip (Carlton) |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'n) | Hooson, Tom |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Hordern, Peter |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Buck, Antony | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Budgen, Nick | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Hurd, Hon Douglas |
| Burden, Sir Frederick | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Jessel, Toby |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Chapman, Sydney | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Churchill, W. S. | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Knox, David |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Lamont, Norman |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Lang, Ian |
| Cockeram, Eric | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Colvin, Michael | Latham, Michael |
| Cope, John | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Corrie, John | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Critchley, Julian | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Crouch, David | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Loveridge, John |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | MacGregor, John |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | MacKay, John (Argyll) |
| Durant, Tony | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. |
| Dykes, Hugh | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Eggar, Tim | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Elliott, Sir William | Madel, David |
| Eyre, Reginald | Major, John |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Marland, Paul |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Marlow, Tony |
| Faith, Mrs Sheila | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Farr, John | Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus |
| Fell, Anthony | Mawby, Ray |
| Fenner, Mrs Peggy | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) | Mayhew, Patrick |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles | Mellor, David |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Miller, Hal (B'grove) |
| Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Fraser, Peter (South Angus) | Moate, Roger |
| Fry, Peter | Monro, Hector |
| Moore, John | Silvester, Fred |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Sims, Roger |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Mudd, David | Speed, Keith |
| Murphy, Christopher | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) |
| Myles, David | Sproat, Iain |
| Neale, Gerrard | Squire, Robin |
| Needham, Richard | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Nelson, Anthony | Steen, Anthony |
| Neubert, Michael | Stevens, Martin |
| Newton, Tony | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Normanton, Tom | Stewart, A (E Renfrewshire) |
| Onslow, Cranley | Stokes, John |
| Osborn, John | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Page, John (Harrow, West) | Tapsell, Peter |
| Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby) | Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW) |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Parkinson, Cecil | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Parris, Matthew | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Thompson, Donald |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Pollock, Alexander | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Porter, Barry | Trippier, David |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Viggers, Peter |
| Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) | Waddington, David |
| Prior, Rt Hon James | Wakeham, John |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Walker, B. (Perth) |
| Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D. |
| Rees-Davies, W. R. | Wall, Patrick |
| Renton, Tim | Waller, Gary |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Ward, John |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Warren, Kenneth |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) | Wells, Bowen |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Whitney, Raymond |
| Rossi, Hugh | Wickenden, Keith |
| Rost, Peter | Wilkinson, John |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Williams, D.(Montgomery) |
| Scott, Nicholas | Wolfson, Mark |
| Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Shepherd, Richard | Mr. Carol Mather and |
| Shersby, Michael | Mr. Alastair Goodlad. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.