HC Deb 02 June 1981 vol 5 cc760-1
2. Mr. Lennox-Boyd

asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he has any plans to meet the general secretary of the Trades Union Congress to discuss the encouragement of legally enforceable agreements in industry.

The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. David Waddington)

Legally enforceable agreements are one of the issues discussed in our Green Paper on trade union immunities. My right hon. Friend has no immediate plans to meet the general secretary of the TUC, but we are, of course, ready to meet him at any time to discuss this or any of the issues discussed in the Green Paper.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

Will my hon. and learned Friend not agree that while trade union leadership is always ready to criticise management for failing to consult, it is often reluctant to accept its responsibilities for ensuring that freely negotiated agreements are fully observed?

Mr. Waddington

This is perhaps not the most appropriate moment to apportion blame. All hon. Members, I believe, will agree that great benefits would accrue to management and employees if collective agreements were enforceable. Management would be able to plan with some knowledge of wage costs over a long period and employees would benefit from the increased productivity that would result.

Mr. Leighton

Will the Minister not accept that this provision was contained in the Industrial Relations Act 1971 of a previous Conservative Government? The only effect was that trade unions stated on the bottom of every piece of headed notepaper "This communication is not legally enforceable." In other words, this simplistic idea is completely impracticable.

Mr. Waddington

Under the 1971 Act, it was stated that there was a presumption that a collective agreement would be enforceable unless the contrary was stated. The hon. Gentleman is right in saying that few were prepared to accept legal enforceability. That does not mean that we should not now bend all our efforts towards persuading people to accept legal enforceability or that we should not investigate various methods by which this can be brought about.

Sir Brandon Rhys Williams

Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that the most important type of agreement that we need to negotiate is the no-strike agreement, both in the public and the private sector? Will his Department open discussions with the TUC to explore formulae to incorporate no-strike agreements?

Mr. Waddington

That matter clearly goes beyond this question, but I assure my hon. Friend that we are well aware of its importance. Again, it is one of the many matters touched upon in the Green Paper.

Mr. Roy Hughes

Does the Minister appreciate that measures of this kind have been tried and talked about for a long time in this country but that they are doomed to failure from the start because the right to withdraw labour is the prerogative of a free man and distinguishes him from the serf?

Mr. Waddington

The hon. Gentleman cannot have been listening to what I said. I said nothing that could have conveyed the impression that I wished to deny the right to withdraw one's labour. I was careful to point out that we should encourage people to accept responsibility for their own actions and agree on legal enforceability.

Mr. Harold Walker

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that what we really need, whether legally enforceable or not, is a readiness on the part of both employers and workers to accept and abide by collective agreements honourably entered into? Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that if the Government as employers had done that with the Civil Service, instead of unilaterally breaching their agreement, there would be no dispute with the Civil Service?

Mr. Waddington

Of course, the Civil Service agreements are collective agreements within the meaning of the 1974 Act and are therefore not enforceable. Perhaps the trade unions concerned will draw one or two lessons from that. On the merits of the matter, notice was given by the Government in August 1980 that cash limits would be the main determinant of the Civil Service settlement this year, and formal action to suspend the pay agreement was taken in October.