DEPICTION OF PUBLIC RIGHTS OF WAY INFORMATION ON ORDNANCE SURVEY MAPS (Hansard, 30 July 1981)

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine)
With this it will be convenient to take amendment No. 90, in schedule 14, page 103, line 13, at end insert— '(1A) Regulations made under sub-paragraph (1) above shall include provisions for a copy of each confirmed order to he sent to the Ordnance Survey.'.

§ Mr. Bennett
Having spoken to the last new clause and not having received much help from the Minister, I shall not speak to the new clause in the hope that this time I shall have some sympathy from the Minister. If I do not, no doubt I will be able to catch your eye again, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

§ Mr. Monro
I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett). My comments will not be particularly forthcoming.
Broadly speaking, the more information that is packed on to a map, the less clear it is and the less attractive it may be to a purchaser. They are experienced people in the Ordnance Survey. They have to make a technical and commercial judgment.

§ Mr. Denis Howell
; No doubt it is because the people in the Ordnance Survey are experienced and efficient that the Government propose to interfere with their activities.

§ Mr. Monro
Not at all. The right hon. Gentleman is misinformed about developments in that respect.
By and large, the Ordnance Survey produces its maps for sale in two scales—1:25,000 and 1:50,000. It has to keep its information up to date as much as possible. It is extremely difficult to do so with all the footpaths that hon. Gentlemen may like to see changed from time to time. ft has to make a commercial judgment on what information it puts on its maps. Having given the matter careful consideration, it feels that it is providing all that is required by the general public on the two scales for which it has the most sale. It would be unreasonable to place a further statutory duty on the Ordnance Survey to change its policy. At present it has no statutory duty to publish a particular series, so it would be going further than is reasonable in this legislation to force it to do so.
I am particularly interested in maps and map making, and I enjoy buying and studying them, but it would be wrong to force the Ordnance Survey to include information on maps that in its commercial judgment it feels would not be to its advantage.
I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman yet again to withdraw his new clause. I appreciate that he feels that the 1283 Government have been unresponsive on a number of his amendments, but he must not forget that we have made substantial changes in the Bill and that there are more Government amendments to come which will be helpful to those interested in the countryside.

§ Mr. Spearing
I, too, am interested in maps. I have spent a great deal of time studying them. Perhaps an even greater humiliation, I spent 14 years teaching people to read them before I became a Member. I am surprised by the Minister's reply.
Certainly maps on the scale 1:50,000—my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) will correct me if it is not on the 1:25,000 scale as well—show where a public right of way or bridleway is also a defined statutory public right of way. Indeed, for some years they have incorporated the statutory definitive maps, which I believe are at the old six-inch scale, on a county basis.
The additional information that shows that they are public rights of way consists of interpolated red dots along the right of way, superimposed on the conventional sign for the footway, bridleway or whatever it may be. As that is done already, I do not understand how additional information, which would be a duty as far as practicable in the new clause, would clutter up the maps. It would merely show additional rights of way that are not shown on the existing maps.
The Ordnance Survey has for many hundreds of years been a public service. It provides a good deal of basic statutory information on which certified extracts are given, at a charge, to legal organisations that reprint the maps as part of their statutory duties. Indeed, when we come to the Dockland orders tonight we shall have such an extract for use in the House.
Where there is a statutory provision relating to footpaths or bridleways, is it not almost a first obligation on the Ordnance Survey to place statutory information on the map, even above some other information, because, useful though it is, it is not a statutory feature of the landscape? So far from thinking that the clause should be rejected because it would make the map less readable or less useful, I suggest that, first, it would be equally as readable as the present maps, and, secondly, it would be more useful, because people using the maps would at least be able to say "It is not in doubt. That has been at one time declared a statutory right of way, and we can use it, obstructions permitting, with a clear conscience."
I find the Minister's reasons for resisting the clause arcane, impractical and unconvincing.

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
I do not know whether the Minister intended to say nothing about amendment No. 90. Perhaps it is my fault for speaking so briefly that I did not press the matter. I should have thought that he could accept it. Where orders are made designating footpaths, it would be common sense to make sure that they were passed on to the Ordnance Survey so that if it wanted to it could put them on its maps.
The Minister's reply was unconvincing. He said that it should be left to the Ordnance Survey to make up its mind whether it put the footpaths on the map. Even if he takes the most congested area of footpaths and the 1:50,000 map, he will see that there is no problem in putting the little red dots on the map to indicate the footpaths without causing major confusion.
1284 There may be some difficulty about the 1:50,000 map. I shall concede that if the hon. Gentleman will concede that the Ordnance Survey must have an absolute duty with regard to the 1:25,000 map, which it now sells as the "Pathfinder" map; it renamed it to make it clear that it was ideal for finding the path. Now the hon. Gentleman says that the Ordnance Survey wants to reserve the right not to put footpaths on that map. How does one find a footpath if it is not on the map?
If the Minister is concerned about the Ordnance Survey and the way in which it is to sell its "Pathfinder" map, he should make it absolutely clear that every right of way will be shown on that map and that it has the big advantage of showing not only the rights of way but field boundaries and is the one on which anyone who goes into the countryside has a good chance of finding the route, causing least problem to the landowner or farmer and getting the maximum amount of enjoyment.
It is very disappointing that the Minister will not at least consider giving the Ordnance Survey the duty to put footpaths on one of those maps. The alternative is for people to start pressing the local authority to publish a special footpath map for its area. I accept that we have had minor concessions on that in other parts of the Bill, but it is duplication when we have the Ordnance Survey with the maps. We should have a simple, workable procedure if we had a guarantee that all footpaths would be put on the 1:25,000 map and the Minister included in the legislation a duty, when footpath orders are made, for that information to be passed on to the Ordnance Survey.
I am disappointed by the Minister's attitude. However, I shall not press the new clause to a vote, though I hope to move amendment No. 90.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.