§ 6. Mr. Craigenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what effect he estimates that his request to local authorities to cut their spending commitments will have on employment and services within the areas concerned.
§ Mr. RifkindIf authorities complied fully with my right hon. Friend's request to revise budgets, the resultant levels of expenditure and staffing would be broadly in line with those which prevailed in 1977–78. Priorities among services are a matter for the individual authorities to resolve.
§ Mr. CraigenHas the Minister made no serious estimate of the number of job losses that will occur in local government and through natural wastage or redundancy? Is he saying that he has not made that calculation?
§ Mr. RifkindI am saying that there is little doubt that in the authorities that have been identified by my right hon. Friend many millions of pounds could be saved without compulsory job redundancies or any significant effect on the vital services that are provided to the local community.
§ Mr. SproatDoes my hon. Friend agree that some of the claims about redundancies by Socialist spokesmen, especially by those representing the Lothian council, are ridiculously exaggerated and irresponsible? Will he remind the House that Tory councillors in Lothian have identified £28 million-worth of cuts that could be made without any job being lost?
§ Mr. RifkindMy hon. Friend is correct. I understand that the Conservative group on the Lothian district council announced this morning that, after discussions with the officials of the Lothian region, it can identify savings of £28 million that could be made without any compulsory job redundancies and without any effect on vital services.
§ Mr. Home RobertsonThe Secretary of State has announced that he will take punitive action against East Lothian district council as well as Lothian regional council, in spite of the assertion of East Lothian Tories, among others, that he is asking the impossible of them. As East Lothian will get a double dose of these mad cuts, will the Minister say exactly what effect the cuts will have on employment, services and everything else in the area that I represent?
§ Mr. RifkindThe Government are willing to have discussions with the East Lothian district council—
§ Mr. Home RobertsonHorse trading.
§ Mr. RifkindI acknowledge that it has already identified certain savings that could be made in its budget. If sufficient effort is made, considerably greater savings can be identified.
§ Mr. Bill WalkerDoes my hon. Friend agree that the behaviour that we saw earlier this afternoon is fairly typical of the far Left? Is he aware that if Dundee district council were to follow the example of Perth and Kinross district council there would be substantial cuts in its spending and a small reduction in manpower levels?
§ Mr. RifkindI will not comment on the conduct earlier this afternoon. Dundee district council has requested a meeting with the Government. I am meeting a deputation from the council tomorrow morning. Stirling district council has also requested a meeting, the date for which has still to be arranged. Lothian regional council has not so far requested a meeting.
§ Mr. DewarDoes the hon. Gentleman accept that the bitter vendetta that he is waging against Scottish local government and local democracy is being conducted regardless of the social consequences? Will he comment specifically on the COSLA estimate that if the cuts were implemented in full there would be a loss of about 6,000 jobs in the teaching profession alone? Is it not a matter for regret that the Government are intent on creating not employment but misery?
§ Mr. RifkindThe hon. Gentleman is absurd in his accusations. He will be aware that when the previous Labour Government were in office his right hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan), as Secretary of State for Scotland, presided over a substantial reduction in staffing in local authorities in Scotland without redundancies. If local authorities are prepared to co-operate with the Government, as in the past, the same achievements could be made.
§ Mr. Millanrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have not called the right hon. Gentleman. I will call him, but it will be at the expense of his Back-Bench colleagues.
§ Mr. MillanWill the Minister say whether the figure of 6,000 teachers is correct? He knows that it is an accurate COSLA figure. Why does he not have the guts and decency to admit it?
§ Mr. RifkindThe right hon. Gentleman will not expect me to comment on education matters within the Scottish Office. We are well aware that if local authorities respond to the guidelines proposed by the Scottish Office in respect of staffing they will still be able to maintain a higher pupil-teacher ratio than has been possible in Scotland in the past.