§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this it will be convenient to take the following amendments: No. 6, in page 3, line 11, after 'snipe', insert
'upon grouse moors or other hill country'.No. 7, in page 3, line 12, at the end insert'and at any other place the period commencing 1st February and ending with 31st August.'.
§ Mr. HardyThese amendments offer the Government a choice. I hope that they will choose rather than resist either alternative. There is clearly a need for improvement in our arrangements for this matter, as the Minister recognised in Committee. Those who served on the Committee will recall the arguments, but one or two hon. Members may benefit from a brief rehearsal of the choice before the Minister.
Now that the jacksnipe has been removed from the quarry list, the snipe is the only wader whose hunting season starts on 12 August rather than 1 September. The House of Lords debated the matter at some length. On 27 January the Earl of Avon suggested that the matter would be referred to the advisory committee. He gave an undertaking that that advice would be sought. In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) asked the Minister what advice the advisory committee had given. I do not believe that we had a well informed response.
During our debate we drew a distinction between the shooting of snipe on grouse moors, where grouse shooting starts on 12 August, and the shooting of snipe in lowland areas. The Minister confirmed that snipe were rarely encountered on grouse moors and that if one were shot there it would be such a rare occurrence that it would not affect conservation. I commented that the shooting of snipe in lowland areas could create a serious conservation problem, as all other shooting in those areas is prohibited until 1 September. Snipe shooting in lowland areas can be a marked cause of disturbance to other species at times when they should not be disturbed. There is also the effect on the lowland snipe population due to the taking of birds during those two and half weeks in August. In lowland Britain, because of the appalling loss of habitat, the snipe population has fallen dreadfully. Early season shooting provides a pressure which should not exist.
I should prefer the Minister to accept the bolder and braver of the alternatives before him. If he feels that he cannot do so, I sincerely trust that he will contribute to the conservation of that attractive bird, the snipe, and give it a chance, if not entirely to recover at least to survive despite the appalling destruction of habitat. I trust that one of the two courses of action can be accepted. I hope that the Minister can tell us the view of the advisory committee.
§ Mr. FarrIt appears almost as if some Opposition Members are pursuing a vendetta against certain forms of lawfully regulated shooting. In Committee, over a succession of days the hon. Members for Rother Valley (Mr. Hardy) and Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) tried to remove even lawful quarry from the quarry list, 871 culminating in a whole morning debating the merits of the goldeneye duck, when they tried unsuccessfully to present a case that its numbers had declined. This is a similar attempt to shorten the season for woodcock and snipe by cutting out night shooting and the shooting of certain species. It is part of the original pattern in which they engaged.
Both hon. Gentlemen seem to have set themselves up as vigilantes to safeguard the interests of all forms of bird species. I remind them and the House that the Government set up a special advisory committee—the Wild Birds Advisory Committee for England and Wales—to advise on wild birds in Britain. It was originally set up under the Protection of Birds Act 1954, and the Minister responsible for administering it and deciding whether species were low in number or prolific was the Home Secretary. It is now the Secretary of State for the Environment. The committee meets regularly. I gather that in the past 12 months it has met no fewer than six times, although it normally meets about four times a year. There is a separate committee for Scotland. The duty of the two committees is to advise the Secretary of State for the Environment if there is a conservation problem for any species.
Can my hon. Friend confirm that there has been no suggestion from the committee that the snipe population is in any way in danger? I understand that no recommendation has been made on the subject.
Furthermore, the amendment would make shooting seasons even more confusing. They already vary from species to species, and under the amendment there would be one closed season for high and another for low ground. For example, someone shooting on a mountainside near the sea would have great difficulty in deciding whether he was at a high or a low level.
In addition, there are no conservation grounds for shortening the snipe season. Snipe are as abundant and plentiful as always. Careful monitoring of the stocks of domestic snipe and snipe coming from abroad takes place continually.
§ Mr. HardyThe hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) should recall that I am not opposed to shooting. Indeed, as his speech develops, I begin to feel that there should be an open season for him.
The hon. Gentleman said that there would be a serious anomaly.
§ Mr. GrahamMy hon. Friend is being sniped at.
§ Mr. HardyI hope that the hon. Gentleman will not attribute that pun to me.
We are trying to tidy up shooting dates. As I pointed out, snipe is the only species of wader whose shooting season starts on 12 August. All others start on 1 September, except for the woodcock season, which is later. The alternative that the hon. Gentleman mentioned is not satisfactory. This amendment would make the matter clean and tidy.
§ Mr. FarrI am anxious to conclude rapidly. I certainly do not intend to return to the long debates that we had in Committee on these points, especially that of season length. The hon. Gentleman will recall that we discussed at considerable length an attempt by him and some of his hon. Friends to shorten the shooting season for wildfowl.
872 As I pointed out then, the season was extended and changed as part of a deal at that time. When the starting date was changed the season was extended into February at the other end. It was part of an agreed deal. I assure the House that if hon. Members try to upset that package they will cause a great deal of unfairness to many who engage in legitimate sporting shooting.
§ 9 pm
§ Mr. Andrew F. BennettI had not intended to intervene in this debate, although I had put my name to the amendment, as I had hoped that the Minister would say that he would accept at least one of the alternatives. Having heard the remarks of the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr), however, I feel that I should say a few words. It was evident throughout the Committee stage that there was no sympathy for birds from the hon. Member for Harborough. His main concern was to promote and protect the gun trade and to ensure that as much wildlife as possible could be shot at.
The hon. Gentleman should consider the facts. The snipe is in difficulties. I accept that this is not due to the amount of shooting. It is due to the reduction in the habitat available to it, particularly with the draining of marshes and other lowland areas. Whilst the difficulties do not result from shooting, it is clear that in many parts of the United Kingdom the snipe is being reduced in numbers and there is a problem. It is therefore reasonable to argue that it should receive extra protection beyond that which was given when that deal was done a long time ago.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Hardy) offered two possibilities. One was to take the special provision for the snipe out of the Bill altogether. The other was to give it a different special protection, to differentiate between its being shot on moorland and its being shot on lowland and marshland. The hon. Member for Harborough seemed to think that it would be very difficult for people to tell the difference. I should have thought that even where moorland goes to the coast it is very different from estuary or marshland and therefore simple to differentiate.
I should have preferred amendment No. 5 to be carried, but if the Minister cannot accept that, I hope that he will at least accept amendment No. 6 and protect not just the snipe in the lowlands areas but the other birds that are disturbed. Many Opposition Members, and, indeed the Committee, felt that too many people went to shoot one bird and often shot others, either intentionally or by mistake. This would be a simple way to make it clear that all the birds on the estuaries and lowlands are protected until 31 August. I hope that the Minister will accept that.
§ Mr. Charles Morrison (Devizes)I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will not accept the amendment. First, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) said, if different seasons were created for low ground on the one hand and for grouse moors and other hill country on the other, there would be the most appalling muddle in the application of the law. I do not know what is meant by "other hill country". I suppose that it is relatively easy to define a grouse moor, although I am not sure that it is as easy as all that, but to my mind it would be utterly impossible to define "hill country".
I suspect that the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Hardy) is thinking of hill country in the North of England. Would the Downs of the South of England be thought of 873 as hill country? There are wet patches in and around Salisbury Plain, for example, in which snipe live. Or is that low ground? I do not know. If we agree to the amendment we shall once again be giving to the courts the power to make law, whereas it should reside in the House. There will be a considerable muddle and uncertainty about precisely what is meant.
It was said that the shooting of snipe on low ground was a cause of disturbance. What about wood pigeons? They are shot endlessly at harvest time, which nowadays may be from the middle of July. I hope that no one will suggest that the shooting of wood pigeons is a cause of disturbance. I cannot, therefore, see why the shooting of snipe should be a disturbance.
It would be extremely unfortunate if the opportunity to shoot at a snipe early in the season were to be removed, because it would affect particularly adversely the rough shooter. There is not much organised shooting of snipe at the best of times, and it would be the occasional rough shooter—the person who shoots in a small way—who would be most adversely affected by the amendment if it were accepted. My guess is that in any case a very small number of snipe are shot between 12 August and the end of that month.
§ Mr. DalyellAfter a speech such as the one from the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Morrison), what a pity it is that he was not with us for the 100 hours in Committee, because he would have learnt a great deal. I wonder whether he would have made quite that speech if he had been through the process of self-education that many of us have been through in Committee.
The speech by the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) really was pretty provocative. It is not a question of vendettas or anything of that kind; it is the fact that some of us do not see as a matter of great recreation the shooting of snipe, which we believe is seriously declining in numbers.
What has happened in the advisory committee? My understanding is that there are some members who think that snipe has declined, for reasons that were given by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) and others. Because of the decline of habitat, and for other reasons, the snipe has declined seriously in the country. So my first question is: what is the Government's estimate of the decline in snipe numbers?
My second question is factual. What exactly has the advisory committee said about 1 September? My understanding is that the advisory committee is of the opinion that 1 September and not 12 August is the more appropriate date. As we have so much else to do, I rest on those two questions, but I should like to add one thing.
The hon. Member for Harborough said that we had spent a lot of time on the goldeneye. My hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Hardy) will remember it well. I should like to record a vote of thanks here and now to the goldeneye. God bless the goldeneye, because it gave us a lot of time, without which we would not have got concessions of the kind that the Opposition have obtained. Let it be recorded that the goldeneye has played its honourable part—together with Sandford on SSSIs, on moorland, on footpaths and on marine nature reserves.
§ Mr. MonroThe hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Hardy) raised this matter in Committee. I said that I would consider it carefully, and I have done so. We must try to 874 be practical. We are talking not about the whole shooting season but about, at most, two and a half weeks in the year.
§ Mr. DalyellBut two and a half rather important weeks.
§ Mr. MonroThe hon. Gentleman is entitled to his view, but he might listen to what I have to say before giving it.
We must consider the amendment in the context of the two and a half weeks from 12 August to 1 September and consider what is likely to happen during that period. The advisory committee recommended that the season should start on 1 September and gave three reasons for its recommendation.
The first is that in lowland areas snipe and many other species still have dependent young and the disturbance could be harmful. We have to make a judgment. I share the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Morrison) that there will be other disturbances on lowland ground at that time. My hon. Friend referred to the shooting of wood pigeons at harvest time. It is like E1 Alamein around some harvest fields near which there are snipe bogs and other wet areas of habitat where snipe may be found. There will be plenty of other disturbance from people shooting pests legitimately. The likelihood of snipe appearing is fairly remote.
The committee's second reason was that even on higher ground there will be immature snipe during August. The third reason was that the committee saw merit in the rationalisation of seasons, but nowhere did it state that such a change would have any impact on conservation, which is what the Bill is about. The NCC brief, which all hon. Members have received, does not mention snipe, and I said in Committee that there was no reduction in snipe numbers at the present time.
The Government noted the committee's advice, and we have not changed the game seasons in the Bill. Game birds are not mentioned, because they are covered by other legislation. The hon. Member for Rother Valley was right to say that of all the birds mentioned in the Bill the snipe is the only species that comes into season on 12 August. However, when talking about rationalisation, the hon. Gentleman must remember that there are other game birds, such as black game, that also come into season in August. We would not remove confusion—we would perhaps add to it—by making only one change to a shooting season.
We are concerned about only two and a half weeks in the year, and it is extremely unlikely that there will be any impact on the numbers of snipe. The Government believe that a change of season is not necessary for conservation reasons.
Other amendments suggest that snipe could be shot on high ground. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes highlighted the obvious impossibility of coming to an arrangement on what is moorland, what is highland and what is the lowland where it 'would be forbidden to shoot snipe during the two and a half weeks up to 1 September.
9.15 pm
When they think about the matter hon. Members will see that the amendment is impracticable. I have been in touch with those who would be most likely to be affected. The large membership of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation tells me that it knows of hardly anyone going out in August to shoot lowland snipe, which 875 are the concern of Opposition Members. Hon. Members appear not to object too strongly to people shooting, or, I think my hon. Friend for Devizes will agree, attempting to shoot, snipe on a grouse moor, because a high driven snipe is a testing target at any time.
I hope that hon. Members realise that the Government have been as helpful as possible towards their amendments. We have accepted amendments put forward by conservation groups and others. Where there is a good case we have agreed to amendments. Here, in practical terms, a small number of snipe are likely to be shot during the two and half weeks. I have set out the reasons why I do not believe that the amendment has any practical importance for the conservation of snipe, and I must therefore resist it.
§ Mr. DalyellThe Minister was justified in referring to the great changes that have been made to the Bill. It is odd therefore that on this matter of the snipe the Government should be so obdurate. I put a factual question. Has the recent evidence from Holland, given to the advisory committee, been taken into account? The Dutch evidence shows that disturbance in August is a major factor. If the Dutch evidence, produced at the last meeting of the advisory committee, is not in his brief, the Minister can perhaps indicate, by the new procedure or some other, that he will bring forward proposals when this matter goes to the other place. In the absence of such an undertaking, I think that it would be the view of my right hon. and hon. Friends that we should divide on the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Hardy). My hon. Friend will doubtless wish to add his expertise on the matter.
§ Mr. MonroThe hon. Gentleman was a little unreasonable, I believe, in putting forward the example of disturbance in Holland, which is very nearly below sea level, to deal with the issue of snipe on the high ground and moorland of Scotland. Whether or not the advisory committee took this matter into account, it was not brought forward in advice to me. That is what I consider to be important. I believe that the hon. Gentleman is going a little too far if he proposes to lead the Opposition into the Division Lobby on the issue of two and a half weeks' shooting of a minute number of snipe that some people manage to achieve on the high ground and moorland of Scotland. The hon. Gentleman puts a difference between his party and mine on a Bill where we have tried to work together.
§ Mr. HardyI think that the Opposition will have to divide the House. We shall clearly not be dividing on the question of two and a half weeks. The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Fan) has provided a much deeper, underlying reason for a Division. He suggested that 876 my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and I had a vendetta against shooting people [Interruption.] I suppose that was a Freudian slip because the hon. Member for Harborough had infuriated me. I was not strongly opposed to having an open season on the hon. Gentleman.
I am not opposed to shooting, as the hon. Gentleman knows full well. I am, however, in favour of conservation. It seems sad that the hon. Gentleman, with all his experience and his contact with the sporting fraternity, should be taking a much less estimable position than the one with which we normally associate him. For example, I take the view that our task is to ensure that wildlife achieves an abundance in Great Britain so that those species which are suitable can provide targets for those who shoot.
The attitude of the hon. Member for Harborough was well displayed when we debated the goldeneye. During that debate I said that the bird did not make particularly good eating, but the hon. Member for Harborough could not restrain himself. He had to assure the Committee that it was almost his main diet. I suggested then that that showed that his taste was deplorable. I believe that his speech tonight was deplorable. It maligned Opposition Members, who have not shown themselves to be opposed to shooting but who have given their first affection to conservation.
If the shooting fraternity had any sense they would strongly back the conservation movement. Many of them, including the Wildfowlers Association of Great Britain and Ireland, recognise more strongly than the hon. Member for Harborough does that conservation is important.
My point is that for waders this amendment would be a sensible rationalisation. Waders should command our concern, since their populations are declining, and the vast destruction of habitat which is occurring bodes ill for many species of wader, including the snipe. The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Morrison) and the hon. Member for Harborough are perhaps more aware than I am that the number of snipe is far smaller than it used to be and that, given a couple of bad winters and the continued destruction of the habitat, which so many Government supporters wish to encourage, by the latter part of the 1980s the snipe will be an extremely scarce bird.
Our attempt was to ensure that the snipe remained in abundance so that it could continue to be shot and perhaps eaten by the hon. Member for Harborough. We are more concerned than he is about the future of his leisure activity. But since he seems unconcerned about whether there will be snipe to be shot in the late 1980s we shall have to vote not for the lesser amendments, Nos. 6 and 7, but for amendment No. 5. If we are to go down, we shall go down with all guns firing rather than just a few.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
878| Division No. 265] | [9.25 pm |
| AYES | |
| Allaun, Frank | Hardy, Peter |
| Anderson, Donald | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Homewood, William |
| Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) | Hooley, Frank |
| Bennett, Andrew(St'kp't N) | Howell, Rt Hon D. |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | John, Brynmor |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Lamond, James |
| Buchan, Norman | Leighton, Ronald |
| Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Campbell, Ian | Litherland, Robert |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | McCartney, Hugh |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | McKay, Allen (Penistone) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Coleman, Donald | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Cowans, Harry | Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
| Crowther, J. S. | Morton, George |
| Cryer, Bob | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Dalyell, Tam | Park, George |
| Davidson, Arthur | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Dixon, Donald | Prescott, John |
| Dormand, Jack | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Rooker, J. W. |
| Dunn, James A. | Sever, John |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Silkin, Rt Hon J, (Deptford) |
| Eadie, Alex | Skinner, Dennis |
| Eastham, Ken | Snape, Peter |
| Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Ennals, Rt Hon David | Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles) |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Stoddart, David |
| Ewing, Harry | Tinn, James |
| Faulds, Andrew | Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster) |
| Fitch, Alan | Welsh, Michael |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | White, Frank R. |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Foster, Derek | Whitlock, William |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Winnick, David |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | |
| Golding, John | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Graham, Ted | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Frank Haynes. |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Cockeram, Eric |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Colvin, Michael |
| Beith, A. J. | Cope, John |
| Bendall, Vivian | Corrie, John |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Cranborne, Viscount |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Crouch, David |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Dean, Paul (North Somerset) |
| Best, Keith | Dunn, Robert (Dartford) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Eden, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Blackburn, John | Eggar, Tim |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Farr, John |
| Bright, Graham | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Brinton, Tim | Fisher, Sir Nigel |
| Brittan, Leon | Forman, Nigel |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Gow, Ian |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Gray, Hamish |
| Budgen, Nick | Greenway, Harry |
| Butcher, John | Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Grist, Ian |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hamilton, Hon A. |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n ) | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Hannam, John |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Heddle, John |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby) |
| Holland, Philip (Carlton) | Page, Richard (SW Herts) |
| Howells, Geraint | Parris, Matthew |
| Hunt, David (Wirral) | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Hurd, Hon Douglas | Pawsey, James |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Percival, Sir Ian |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Pollock, Alexander |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Prior, Rt Hon James |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) |
| Kimball, Marcus | Rossi, Hugh |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Royle, Sir Anthony |
| Knight, Mrs Jill | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Lamont, Norman | Scott, Nicholas |
| Lee, John | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Speed, Keith |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Speller, Tony |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Spence, John |
| Luce, Richard | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Stevens, Martin |
| MacGregor, John | Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire) |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Madel, David | Tebbit, Norman |
| Marlow, Tony | Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. |
| Mates, Michael | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Mather, Carol | Thompson, Donald |
| Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Mellor, David | Trippier, David |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Viggers, Peter |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Waddington, David |
| Mills, Peter (West Devon) | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Wall, Patrick |
| Moate, Roger | Ward, John |
| Monro, Hector | Watson, John |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Wells, Bowen |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Wheeler, John |
| Murphy, Christopher | Wickenden, Keith |
| Myles, David | Williams, D.(Montgomery) |
| Neale, Gerrard | Wolfson, Mark |
| Newton, Tony | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Normanton, Tom | |
| Onslow, Cranley | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Osborn, John | Mr. Robert Boscawen and |
| Page, John (Harrow, West) | Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.