Vagrancy Act (Hansard, 9 July 1981)

§ 7. Mr. Dubs
Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any plans to repeal the provisions of the Vagrancy Act dealing with begging, sleeping rough and being found on enclosed premises.

§ 22. Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any plans to repeal the provisions of the Vagrancy Act dealing with begging, sleeping rough and being found on enclosed premises.

§ 24. Mr. Kilroy-Silk
Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any plans to repeal the provisions of the Vagrancy Act dealing with begging, sleeping rough and being found on enclosed premises.

§ Mr. Mayhew
No, Sir. The Select Committee on Home Affairs in its recent report on these provisions recommended that the three principal offences should be retained, at least for the time being. The Government agree with the Select Committee's recommendation.

§ Mr. Dubs
Is the Minister aware that the Select Committee was divided on the issue? Will he confirm that about 200 people are sent to prison every year for offences that stem directly or indirectly from these provisions in the Vagrancy Act? Is it not time that we had another look at the laws under which some of the most disadvantaged in our society are punished and sent to gaol in this way?

§ Mr. Mayhew
The hon. Member is correct when he says that the Select Committee was divided. However, I note that his hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Lyon) voted with the majority on nearly every occasion. The fact that a Select Committee is divided does not necessarily make invalid its recommendations. Not many people are sentenced to imprisonment under these provisions. We all look forward to the day when these provisions can be repealed. I agree with the findings of the Select Committee, which supports the views of the police, in particular, who find that there is some value in rare cases in retaining these offences.

§ Mr. Bennett
Will the Minister confirm that approximately 100 people are sent to prison direct and that a further 100 are sent as a result of failure to pay fines?

§ Mr. Mayhew
That is correct. The figures are about 200 every year. The figures for immediate imprisonment for 1979 are: 15 for sleeping rough, 84 for the begging offence, and about 44 for being on enclosed premises. The enclosed premises offence has little do with vagrancy, as the Select Committee made clear. It has to do with those who enter premises with criminal intent.

§ Mr. Kilroy-Silk
Does the Minister accept that the offences of begging and sleeping rough are fundamentally objectionable in that they punish and label as criminals 569 those who are affected by the problems of homelessness and poverty? Will he accept the majority report—the unanimous report—of the Home Office Select Committee and now repeal them, or at least make them non-imprisonable offences?

§ Mr. Mayhew
The Government are prepared to consider the Select Committee's recommendation to take away the power of imprisonment. However, there is a difficult problem here. I adopt the words of the amendment proposed by the hon. Member for York (Mr. Lyon), which were as follows: The problem of our society is to deal with behaviour which may not be culpable but which creates a public nuisance where the offender refuses to use social agencies which exist to help him. This is a difficult social problem. We are not satisfied that now is the time to take away these offences from the statute book.

§ Mr. George Cunningham
Does the Minister of State recollect that just two questions ago the Secretary of State said that he did not want custodial sentences for minor offences? Does he recollect that he has in the Select Committee report a unanimous recommendation that sleeping rough and begging should cease to be offences which carry an imprisonment sentence? Will the Government make up their mind on this matter before next Wednesday evening so that we can have an amendment which does the modest job of making the two offences non-imprisonable?

§ Mr. Mayhew
I think that everyone who pays attention to the problems of penal policy wants to see as few people in custody as is consistent with the proper protection of the public. These matters do not lend themselves to easy or slick solutions. I have said that we shall consider what the Select Committee has recommended. I mean that, but that is all that I am able to say.