HC Deb 09 July 1981 vol 8 cc565-6
5. Mr. Hardy

Secretary of State for the Home Department if there is any evidence that courts have imposed prison sentences so far in the current year shorter than those imposed during the same period in 1979 and 1980; and what further action he proposes to take to encourage the award of shorter sentences or of alternatives to custodial sentences.

Mr. Whitelaw

The only national information so far available about sentencing this year relates to prison receptions. Receptions of sentenced prisioners as a whole are up, but those of prisoners sentenced to more than 18 months were appreciably lower in the first four months of 1981 compared with 1980 and slightly lower than in 1979. I continue to support the lead given by the Court of Appeal regarding custodial sentences for less serious offences.

Mr. Hardy

I welcome the extremely modest improvement that has taken place. But does the Home Secretary accept that much more positive action is now necessary? Will he consult as soon as possible the informed organisations to discuss alternative and additional steps which are now urgently required?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am constantly in touch with all these organisations about non-custodial sentences, whether through the work of the probation service, community service orders or the many other agencies which are trying to deal with offenders not in custody.

Mr. Wheeler

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the prison population now exceeds 44,000 in England and Wales? What steps does he contemplate taking to deal with this alarming situation? What reassurance will he give to the public that persons convicted of rioting, crimes of violence and robbery will continue to receive exemplary sentences?

Mr. Whitelaw

It is true, as my hon. Friend said, that, since the prison officers' dispute, the prison population has risen substantially and is now more than 44,000. As for the future, I remain of the view that it is important that custodial sentences are imposed for serious offences. Those who need to be given custody for the protection of the public or because of the seriousness of their offences should receive custodial sentences. Equally, I believe that non-custodial sentences may be imposed for less serious offences. In many cases, in the discretion of the courts, a short custodial sentence may be at least as effective as, and in some cases more effective than, a longer one.

Mr. Kilroy-Silk

Does the Home Secretary agree that the clear and repeated exhortations of successive Home Secretaries and Lord Chancellors to reduce sentence levels have not prevented the prison population from reaching a new record and dangerous level? Given that state of affairs, is it not time for him to introduce legislation to reduce the maximum length of sentences—or must prisoners go on hunger strike to negotiate improvements?

Mr. Whitelaw

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to have a rational consideration of the ways in which we should decide between custodial sentences for violent and serious offences and non-custodial sentences for others, knowing the very considerable interest that he takes in the subject, I do not think that the example he has given makes either his advocacy or my task any easier.

Mr. Budgen

Does my right hon. Friend agree that all the various considerations that he put forward are matters for the individual trial judge to consider, and that now is not the right time to erode the independence of the judiciary by introducing legislation automatically to cut the sentences of those serving short terms of imprisonment after they have served one-third of their sentence?

Mr. Whitelaw

I take my hon. Friend's point. It is important that the discretion of judges and magistrates should not be eroded. Equally, the considerations that put forward in the parole review should be considered rationally by the House and the country. I am asking for a rational consideration of them.

Dr. Summerskill

To what level must the prison population rise before the right hon. Gentleman will consider introducing legislation to make some offences non-custodial and reducing the maximum prison sentence for certain other offences, rather than relying on exhortations to the courts, which do not appear to have been successful?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am surprised that the hon. Lady or anyone who has had responsibilities at the Home Office in the past should make impertinent suggestions about the size of the prison population, because they in their time did absolutely nothing to deal with prison buildings, prison maintenance or, indeed, anything to do with our prisons. It is no good people who did nothing when in power now coming along with ideas. I have said that I am most anxious to deal sensibly with this problem. I have made some proposals, and I am prepared to have them considered. However, I am entitled to say that I am the first Home Secretary for a long time who has made any effort to deal with the problem.