HC Deb 09 July 1981 vol 8 c571
9. Mr. Thomas Cox

Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the prison population in England and Wales on 25 June.

Mr. Mayhew

About 44,600.

Mr. Cox

Is the Minister aware that his reply reveals that the prison population is now at an all-time high? Does he appreciate that because of the lack of work, the lack of association and the overcrowding that exists in our prisons, the prison system could explode into the most appalling violence at any time? When will he start to take note of what prison governors and the Prison Officers Association are saying about drastic reduction in the prison population?

Mr. Mayhew

The hon. Gentleman is right when he says that the prison population is at, or is nearly at, a record level. It is a serious matter, as my right hon. Friend has made abundantly clear over quite a long time. That is why the Government are considering what ways there may be, consistent with maintaining the proper protection that the public need and deserve, to reduce the prison population. It is a far from easy task. However, we are considering ways in which that can be done. The present level of the prison population represents a potential danger.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

Is my hon. and learned Friend able to say what percentage of those now in prison have been in prison before?

Mr. Mayhew

I shall have to write to my hon. Friend about that. I do not know whether the figures are held centrally but I expect that they are. I shall write to him, if I may.

Mr. Soley

Does not this terrifyingly and dangerously high figure confirm that the Home Secretary's desire that shorter sentences should be imposed for non-dangerous offences by means of advice to the courts is not being realised and cannot be realised, partly because the courts should not be expected to act on such advice? Responsibility lies with the House to legislate for shorter sentences or to introduce a public prosecutor system that might take us towards that end. The responsibility lies here with us. When will we act on it?

Mr. Mayhew

There are several separate considerations in the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. First, it is not for my right hon. Friend to give advice to the courts and he does not do so. Such advice as has been given to the courts has come from the Lord Chief Justice. It is too early yet to ascertain what effect the judgments in the Court of Appeal in the cases of Upton and Bibi will have. As to whether we go into a system of public prosecutors, much depends on the review of the Royal Commission's recent report and on the opinions that are expressed. That is a separate issue.