HC Deb 22 January 1981 vol 997 cc417-22
Q1. Mr. Meacher

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 22 January.

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be having further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.

Mr. Meacher

Is the Prime Minister satisfied when in their first six months her Government gave away according to the Treasury £650 million to the richest 1 per cent. of the population and then in the past 13 months, according to the latest unemployment indicators, have forced more than 1 million of the poorer members of society on to the dole? Is it not a symbol of Tory rule that this Government have engineered the biggest increase in means-tested poverty in 12 months in this country since 1932?

The Prime Minister

I fully endorse the policies of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in reducing rates of income tax right up the income scale. He did that in 1979. It was necessary to get more incentives into the economy. It was apparent that people were fed up with being taxed more and more on the earnings in their pocket. With regard to the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question, it sits strangely alongside the figures that for the vast majority of people in this country—namely, the 90 per cent. who are working—the increase in their income last year in real terms was 4 per cent.

Sir Paul Bryan

Will the Prime Minister find time during this Question Time to ask the Leader of the Opposition why it is that as Saturday approaches his statements regarding his attitude towards nuclear disarmament get more and more confused and confusing?

The Prime Minister

I understand my hon. Friend's point, but the task of the Leader of the Opposition is not to answer questions, and I hope that it never will be.

Mr. Foot

Perhaps we could get the right hon. Lady to answer this one. On Tuesday she said that a question about the possible sale of Times Newspapers Limited—The Times and The Sunday Times—to Mr. Rupert Murdoch was premature. I understand that there is to be a statement this afternoon on the matter. Has she now had time to reconsider? Will she immediately and properly refer the matter to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission?

The Prime Minister

I shall give the right hon. Gentleman a direct answer, as I did on Tuesday. No application for transfer has yet been received, and I will not be driven into a premature reply.

Mr. Foot

If the right hon. Lady is so diffident about making a reply, will she give an undertaking that before a final decision is made the House will have a chance to give its view?

The Prime Minister

The only undertaking that I can give to the right hon. Gentleman is that, if and when an application is received, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will consider it in accordance with the law, which is the 1973 Act.

Sir William Clark

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the nationalised industries over the past 12 months had kept prices down, as the private sector has, we should probably now be enjoying inflation rates in single figures? Does not that give strength to the argument that this country does not need more nationalisation, but less?

The Prime Minister

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is absolutely vital that the nationalised industries become as expert at cutting costs and increasing efficiency as the private sector is and has to be.

Q2. Mr. Beith

asked the Prime Minister whether she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 January.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave a few moments ago.

Mr. Beith

Does the Prime Minister realise that this afternoon the leaders of Northumberland county council are meeting to consider specific proposals to close the centre for training the mentally handicapped in Berwick, to close centres for physically handicapped, to scrap meals on wheels and to end school meals in primary schools? Are those the sort of things that she wants local authorities to do in order to achieve the cuts which she is asking for?

The Prime Minister

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman looks not merely at what they are cutting but at what they are preferring to keep in existence. He should look carefully at the things which they are preferring to do and compare them with the things that they are preferring to close.

Mr. Hordern

Has my right hon. Friend noticed the number of pay settlements in the private sector which have been reported to the CBI which are now in single figures? In view of that will she now announce a review of the method of determining pay in the public sector, bearing in mind the substantial advantages of security of employment, pensions and not least Professor Clegg?

The Prime Minister

My hon. Friend is quite correct. Many pay settlements in the private sector are not only in single figures but well down into single figures, which augurs well for realism in the future. As to the determination of pay in the public sector, it is of course, subject to cash limits. Those cash limits are being fixed in accordance with what the Government feel the taxpayer and ratepayer can afford. I think that is the right way to do it.

Mr. Skinner

How does the Prime Minister regard the recent bailing out of Massey Ferguson and others by the Bank of England and the other clearing banks over the past few weeks? Is she aware that it has taken the Government two years less than the previous Tory Government headed by the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) to set a lifeboat into operation? How does she explain to the thousands of ever smaller firms, which are being kicked to death by the Tory Government, that they must stand the test of market forces while these multinationals and others are rescued by her policy and the Bank of England?

The Prime Minister

I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would have been critical had the private enterprise banks

Mr. Christopher Price

And the Bank of England.

The Prime Minister

—the clearing banks and many other banks not got together to do what they could for companies which find themselves in difficulty.

Mr. Rathbone

Will the Prime Minister remind the House that whatever the Leader of the Opposition does in harping about the future for The Times, it is Conservative Members who are most concerned about the freedom of the press, and that Conservative concern should be compared with the Labour Party policy for the press in "The People and The Media' which is part of the Opposition's specific adopted policy?

The Prime Minister

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The policy in the Labour Party document "The People and The Media" would have been a policy for censorship of the press.

Q3. Mr. Newens

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 January.

The Prime Minister

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave some time ago.

Mr. Newens

Before the Prime Minister visits Harlow tomorrow, will she study the disastrous results of her policies on the town? Is she aware of the damage that has been done to efficient industry not to mention the creation of unemployment, by the delay of her Ministers with regard to the settlement of a £10 million section 10 claim for housing maintenance costs, the loss of £2 million in housing subsidy, the addition of £1¼ million to the town's costs as a result of the rate support grant settlement and attempts to sell small business properties over the heads of the small businessmen? Is she aware that half the Conservative group have left the Conservative party?

Mr. Speaker

Order. There are enough questions there to get on with.

Mr. Newens

rose—

Hon. Members

Order.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has asked three questions already.

The Prime Minister

If my correspondence is anything to go by, the main complaint of small businessmen is the intolerable burden that has been put upon them by increased nationalised industry prices and the increased rates that are being charged. I am going to Harlow. I hope to visit a successful company. I am also going to a place in which under a Tory Government the people have the right to purchase their council or new town houses, which they never had under a Labour Government.

Mr. Temple-Morris

Will my right hon. Friend take a further opportunity today to remind the British press that rather than concentrating on the not inconsiderable constitutional problems of the Labour Party, it would be much better employed in underlining the Socialist statements which emanate from the Opposition Front Bench, not least the recent pronouncement by the Shadow Leader of the House calling for the use of pension and insurance funds, oil revenues and increased taxation in an orgy of State interference and nationalisation which this country can well do without?

The Prime Minister

I agree with my hon. Friend. Socialism is synonymous with total control by the Government and lack of liberty by the subject.

Mr. Norman Atkinson

A few answers ago, the Prime Minister said that wage settlements which have been notified to the CBI have been in single figures. She went on to say that as a result of the settlements to which she referred, workers have accepted a 10 per cent. drop in their living standards. She added that this augured well for the future. What on earth did she mean?

The Prime Minister

I can tell the hon. Gentleman precisely what I meant. Until we get to a position where wages bear some relation to output, we shall not get competitive industry, secure job prospects or prosperity. I am only disappointed that I must explain that to the hon. Gentleman.

Q4. Mr. Hal Miller

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 22 January.

The Prime Minister

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave some time ago.

Mr. Miller

In the context of the previous question, will my right hon. Friend take time during her busy day to confirm that it is only by competitive and productive industry that employment and wages can be increased? In that context, will she point to the success of the BL Metro project, which has resulted in 1,000 additional workers being taken on since Christmas and bonus earnings at the rate of more than £12 a week?

The Prime Minister

I wholly agree with my hon. Friend. One must be competitive in order to improve one's standard of living in this world. It is astonishing just how much difficulty one has in getting that message across to certain quarters of this House. That is the only recipe for the future. I am delighted to hear what my hon. Friend has said about the Metro. We wish it every success. Perhaps I can take the opportunity to say that I believe that there will be a statement about British Leyland early next week.

Mr. Foot

Can the right hon. Lady help us on a matter for which she is directly responsible, namely, the announcement that is to be made next Tuesday on the fresh unemployment figures, which the Secretary of State for Employment has already said are likely to be appalling? That means that on Tuesday we shall be faced with appalling and unprecedented unemployment figures. We have seen recent announcements in Liverpool and elsewhere of fresh additions to that terrible total. Will the right hon. Lady give us the assurance for which we have asked on many occasions, namely, that the statement on this all-important matter will be made in the House on Tuesday, and that the Government will provide an immediate opportunity to debate the issue, for which they are primarily responsible?

The Prime Minister

The answer is "No". The statement about unemployment figures will be made in the way that it has been made year in and year out. As the right hon. Gentleman will have already observed, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment is top for questions that day.

Mr. Foot

Does not the right hon. Lady yet understand that we are faced month by month with the worst unemployment figures that we have had since the end of the war? If Conservative Members do not understand that, it shows how little they understand what is happening in the country. When will the right hon. Lady take responsibility for the affliction that she has brought upon Britain?

The Prime Minister

While the right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State for Unemployment—Employment—[Interruption.]—while he was Secretary of State for Employment, unemployment rose by more than 100 per cent. At no time did he take the course that he is now advocating.

Mr. Foot

Before the right hon. Lady has the presumption to come to the House again and merely recite the Conservative central office handbook, will she look up the figures? Will she understand that when we were in office we fought against those figures, turned them, and were bringing them down? If she could say that she had brought down the unemployment figures by the same amount that we brought them down during our last 18 months in office, she would claim that it was the biggest miracle since the loaves and the fishes. Does she not understand that she is responsible for what is happening, and that it is high time that she came to the House and faced it?

The Prime Minister

I shall certainly accept the right hon. Gentleman's invitation to look at the figures. I took the precaution of bringing them with me. When he took over as Secretary of State for Employment the figures for unemployment—[HON. MEMBERS: "Now."] But the right hon. Gentleman invited me to look at the figures—[Interruption.] He invited me to look at the figures and I took the precaution of having them with me. When he took over as Secretary of State for Employment, the unemployment figure was 618,413. By July 1976, it was 1½ million. By August 1977, it was 1,635,000. The following August they were the same. The following August they had fallen to 1½ million—[HON. MEMBERS: "Now."] They have indeed risen, but during the right hon. Gentleman's time unemployment rose by more than 100 per cent. That was distressing. I share the right hon. Gentleman's distress, but I do not understand his synthetic anger about procedural matters.

Mr. Foot

We in the country are wondering when the right hon. Lady will show any signs of distress for what she has achieved. Will she now tell us, as she has all the figures with her, the figures for the increase in unemployment since she took office?

The Prime Minister

The right hon. Gentleman is aware that we took over with—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. The Leader of the Opposition was allowed to ask his question, and the Prime Minister must be allowed to answer.

The Prime Minister

Of course I shall reply. I happen to have the figures with me. When we took over, the unemployment position was at a base figure of 1,340,595—almost twice as much as the base figure when the right hon. Gentleman took office. We began with 1.4 million. The December figure was 2,133,000. While the right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State for Employment he witnessed an increase in unemployment of more than 100 per cent. We shared his distress at that. I hope that he will share ours. He is asking a procedural point. The unemployment figures will be announced in the way that they have been announced for a very long time. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment is answering questions that afternoon for something like three-quarters of an hour, which seems to be ample time to answer questions put to him by right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House.