Security (Hansard, 15 January 1981)

§ 6. Mr. Molyneaux
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

§ 18. Mr. Trippier
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the present security situation in Northern Ireland.

§ 19. Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the security situation in the Province.

§ 20. Mr. Biggs-Davison
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the security of the Province.

§ Mr. Humphrey Atkins
Since 27 November, when I last answered questions in the House, the Royal Ulster Constabulary, supported where appropriate by the Army, has continued its drive against all forms of crime. Sixty-six people have been charged with offences arising from the present campaign of violence, including five with murder and 18 with attempted murder. One man has been charged with six murders committed in 1975 and 1976. Recent convictions demonstrate that the passage of time offers no protection to criminals. Acts of violence persist, though 1132 happily on a lower scale than during the same period last year. Two members of the security forces and five civilians, including a prison officer, have died. One of those deaths, that of Mrs. Pollock of Strabane, once more demonstrated the total disregard of terrorists for the safety and well-being of ordinary members of the public. The widespread condemnation of this particular attack clearly demonstrated the utter rejection of violence by the community at large.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I propose to call first those hon. Members whose questions are being answered together.

§ Mr. Molyneaux
Can the Secretary of State assess the true significance of the value of recent arms finds south of the frontier? Has there been any evidence to suggest that terrorists are now less able to launch attacks on the United Kingdom from the territory of the Irish Republic?

§ Mr. Atkins
Co-operation between the RUC and the Garda continues, and it is encouraging. I am also encouraged, of course, by arms finds. Every time that arms and explosives are removed from the terrorists' control, that reduces their capability to mount further attacks. I should be misleading the House if I were to indicate that they do not still have the capability to mount serious attacks. They do. But the co-operation between the two police forces is slowly producing the effects that we all desire and slowly reducing the capability of the terrorists, which is something that we all want.

§ Mr. Trippier
Will my right hon. Friend accept that the House is much encouraged by arrests such as those made by the RUC in Downpatrick earlier this week?

§ Mr. Atkins
Yes, Sir. As the House may know, a routine RUC patrol stopped two cars in Downpatrick on Tuesday morning. One was a mobile car bomb carrying two beer kegs full of explosives. The occupants, four men and one woman, are still being questioned. It is that sort of police activity of a preventive nature, as well as the activities of the police in catching criminals after they have committed crimes, that is most encouraging. We all congratulate the RUC on what it is doing.

§ Mr. McNair-Wilson
Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the considerable presence of Army units in the border area has resulted in a marked falling off of terrorist activity? Can he also say whether that same presence is allowing the RUC to act with greater flexibility in those areas?

§ Mr. Atkins
I have never given the House details of the deployment of the Army or the RUC in particular areas of Belfast—and I do not intend to do so now, for reasons which I know the House will understand. There is no doubt that the activities of the RUC and the Army in border and other areas are having a marked effect. We all hope that they will so inhibit the activities and movements of terrorists that the level of violence will continue to diminish markedly.

§ Mr Biggs-Davison
I acknowledge the excellent co-operation between the police forces of the United Kingdom and the Republic, but will my right hon. friend say whether there was any truth in the report in The Daily Telegraph some time ago that we were moving towards further co-operation between the armies of the two countries?

§ Mr. Atkins
We are seeking to prevent crimes and to apprehend and bring before the courts offenders who commit those crimes. This is essentially a police activity. Obviously, I am responsible for what happens in Northern Ireland, but the police there take the lead in these operations and are supported as and when necessary by the Army. I have no reason to believe that the position is any different in the Republic.

§ Mr. Concannon
Is the Secretary of State aware that, as well as giving reports to the House on the changing face or emphasis of terrorism in Northern Ireland, he could be a little more helpful and encouraging to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, Central (Mr. McNamara) about the judicial inquiry into the courts system? He may find such an inquiry helpful, as we found the last one helpful. That does not necessarily mean that there will be wholesale changes, but an outside body would look at the system, and that might prove helpful to the Secretary of State.

§ Mr. Atkins
The right hon. Gentleman has made that suggestion before. I accept that it might be helpful, and I have promised to undertake such an inquiry. I said earlier that we had not reached a decision so to do, and I reminded hon. Members that the House decides once every six months whether the emergency provisions should continue.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the view of the people in Fermanagh is not in keeping with his view that there is good co-operation between the Army and the RUC on the Fermanagh border, bearing in mind that there have been 50 deaths and those who perpetrated those murders are now safe in the sanctuary of the Republic?

§ Mr. Atkins
I have never claimed that the co-operation is perfect. If it were, there would be no crime—and there is. There are certain areas, of which Fermanagh is one, where, understandably, people feel themselves at risk. However, I claim that the efforts of the security forces in the North are being directed as efficiently as may be towards the areas that matter most. The co-operation between them and the authorities in the Republic is better now than it has been for many years.

§ Mr. McNamara
With regard to the answer that the Secretary of State gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Mr. Concannon), and in view of the fact that the House reviews these matters every six months, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell the House what additional facilities he is prepared to put at the disposal of hon. Members in order to reach decisions that they may wish to take on the renewal of these orders? Will he also bear in mind that they are statutory instruments and therefore we have no opportunity to amend them?

§ Mr. Atkins
The arrangements for hon. Members to inform themselves about Northern Ireland are long-standing, and they are implemented by the Government in the same way as they were by their predecessors. If the hon. Gentleman has any particular suggestions to make, perhaps he would like to tell me about them.