HC Deb 13 January 1981 vol 996 cc845-7
11. Mr. van Straubenzee

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what figure he estimates the pupil to teacher ratio in the academic year 1980–81 will reach.

Mr. Mark Carlisle

The Government's plans provided for an overall pupil teacher ratio of 18.8 in nursery, primary and secondary schools in England in January 1981. Present indications are that the outturn will he very close to that figure.

Mr. van Straubenzee

If effective education provision can, at least in part, be measured by the pupil-teacher ratio, in spite of the present economic difficulties, is not the figure very encouraging for all people involved in education provision?

Mr. Carlisle

It is encouraging. The figure is lower than the one that we inherited. The figure the year before last was 18.9. Last year it was 18.8. This year it will be somewhere near 18.8. My prediction is that it will be slightly less than that.

Mr. Armstrong

I congratulate the Secretary of State on confounding all the forecasts of the pundits and on retaining his position and the favour of the headmistress. Does the Secretary of State take on board the fact that the teacher-pupil ratio is only one of many factors to be taken into account when considering the real needs of children in schools? Does he agree that a disturbing feature of present policy is that young, dedicated and enthusiastic teachers are denied entry to the profession because so many posts remain unfilled due to economic stringency? Will he bear in mind the need to encourage young folk to enter this vital profession?

Mr. Carlisle

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he said at the beginning of his question. He gives living proof of what is often said from the Conservative Front Bench, namely, that one should not believe everything that one reads in the press. Of course I accept that the pupil-teacher ratio is only one factor relating to the standards of education provision. I am conscious of the need to encourage well-qualified young teachers, particularly in the shortage subjects, to come into the teaching profession. I intend to make that point in my speech to the North of England conference in Carlisle this week.

Mr. Marlow

As the pupil-teacher ratio in 1970 was 22.7, will my right hon. and learned Friend say whether there has been a massive increase in standards of education since then? If not, will he consider reverting to that figure of 22.7 and saving £400 million of public money at the same time?

Mr. Carlisle

No. If one examines any prediction over the years by any measurable standard, whether it is of provision or examination results, one finds that there has been a continual and gradual improvement which was particularly affected by the raising of the school leaving age, which occurred since the date to which my hon. Friend referred. Of course I am not saying that the pupil-teacher ratio is the only thing that matters. However, I am entitled to say, in view of the continual criticism from the Opposition Benches, that one must keep the financial restrictions in perspective and bear in mind what is happening in the schools.

Mr. Kinnock

When putting such restrictions into perspective, does the Secretary of State think that the favourable pupil-teacher ratio trend will be maintained when the school population falls by an estimated 13 per cent. and the number of teachers falls by an estimated 12 per cent? Will not that have the effect, as the Secretary of State acknowledged at the end of last year, of a reduction in the quality of education —to use the right hon. and learned Gentleman's words? Alternatively, does he acknowledge that, in the words of the senior chief inspector of schools, Miss Sheila Browne, "it will be a miracle if the curriculum remains unscathed"? Bearing those developments, admissions, acknowledgements and observations in mind, is it not time that the right hon. and learned Gentleman stopped talking about the prospect of maintaining the quality and standard of education, while cutting the standard of provision in our schools?

Mr. Carlisle

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to quote Her Majesty's chief inspector, he should do so correctly. She did not use quite those words.

Mr. Kinnock

What did she say?

Mr. Carlisle

She did not use the words that the hon. Gentleman attempted to put into her mouth. The hon. Gentleman asked about the pupil-teacher ratio. I still have to have discussions with the local authority associations about the figure for 1980–81, but I expect it to be much the same as the figure that I have just announced.

Mr. Kinnock

I understand that Miss Browne said "it will be a miracle if we can maintain the level of curriculum." Did she, or did she not, say that? If she did, will the Secretary of State acknowledge that Miss Browne is an effective and authoritative observer in these matters?

Mr. Carlisle

Of course I accept that, and I rely strongly on her advice. We are both talking without notes, but I think that Miss Browne's words were slightly different from those used by the hon. Gentleman. I think that she said "It will be a miracle if there were not changes in the curriculum in certain schools".